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[Music]

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hello everyone this is Martin Willis

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your host and I have an exciting guest

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we're going to be talking about what I

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think is a fascinating topic we have

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Edwin seam a PhD and he's

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internationally known for his work and

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parapsychology we're going to be talking

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about the Stargate project as some

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people call it or the Stargate program

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and so much more and again I'm really

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excited I spoke to Edwin about a year

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ago or a little bit more fascinating man

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and here he is all the way from

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California how are you well fine Martin

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thanks for having me on the show and

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looking forward to it yes and I like

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that title you chose for this show which

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is basically psychic spies the Russians

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and research the inside story so yeah we

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want to hear the inside story well I was

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on the program from 1976 through 1995

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the program was funded by the US

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government as everybody knows under the

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name of Stargate which was only the last

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name of a whole bunch of what are called

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code names or special access names but

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nonetheless if you add up it was founded

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by Russell Targ and how put off people

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know those names fairly well now and

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they are to be congratulated for their

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bravery for starting this program in

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1972 I joined in 1976 my time of the

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program is longer than the sum of those

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two guys how left in 85 and Russell left

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in 82 so I've been there the longest so

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if you want an inside story as biased as

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it is it's me back and how did you how

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did you fall into I mean there wasn't a

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whole lot of people employed and

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actually working under this government

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contract how did that all happen how did

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it start I should say well it turns out

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they give just a bit of history here I'm

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putting together with a colleague

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where we're calling the Stargate

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archives which are four very large books

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one maybe 800 to a thousand pages each

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all the work that was carried on by the

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US government

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we have enough fourth volume which tells

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all the memos flying back and forth

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within the government as with regard to

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starting this program one member we have

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was signed by the Director of Central

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Intelligence a guy by the name of Colby

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starting the program in 1972 they were

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concerned that that perhaps the stories

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coming out of the Soviet Union and China

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and elsewhere if those stories were true

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then there was somewhat of an obvious

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self-evident possible applications for

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intelligence gathering so that's why

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they were interested in it the other

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thing it's really interesting from my

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point of view as a sort of materialist

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physicist that the people who were

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starting this if the agency in the later

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on of other organizations from the

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government looked at it purely as a

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signal based system from physics

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physiology and psychology there was

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nothing sort of new agey aspect about it

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at all many of my colleagues and

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sometimes myself think oh well maybe

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they're missing something in that regard

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hmm I came to it though it may in a very

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backward sort of way I was in finished

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graduate school I was a postdoc in

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nuclear physics at the University of

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California Davis from the cyclotron

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cyclotron lab out there I've never even

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heard of ESP let alone being interested

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and I'm sitting around I see an advert

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for a weekend seminar run by Professor

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Charles Tarr charlie cart and he had a

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guy on there named Bob Monroe which is

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now known as the Monroe Institute in

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Virginia and Bob Monroe had just

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published a book called journeys out of

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the body so I had nothing better to do

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so I went to that thing and here's this

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kind of business oriented looking guy in

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his 50s saying the most amazing

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I thought completely stupid things that

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it possibly could imagine he was getting

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out of his body and he was going and

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pinching somebody and they would have a

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bruise on them you know out of his body

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pinching them all

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says it okay if this business guy can do

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that I'm an arrogant stupid physicist I

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bought the book and I started reading

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and I read the whole book and I said

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okay I want to give this up go I mean if

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this is real I should be able to do it

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and I tried desperately for maybe two

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nuts nothing happened so I stick the

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whole thing aside and rejected the whole

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thing but then I ran into a guy he was

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giving a talk at UC Berkeley his name

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was Charles honorton and we became

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friends and colleagues Eve as a mentor

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of mine and he was speaking science I

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went to go hear him he was talking sign

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so I invited Chuck out for dinner and I

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said hey Chuck started asking all these

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really tough questions and he had solid

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scientific answer huh and that got me

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interested in the field I said how could

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I not be interested in this I'm an

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experimental physicist for the PhD in

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nuclear physics how could I fail not to

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be interested in this yeah I'm still

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here Wow well interesting so but did you

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find this particular job with the

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government or did they find you how did

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all that how did all that happen ah very

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good

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there is now the late mr. Ingo Swan

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well-known psychic in the early days

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subject and I had spent a year in India

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chasing miracles I found none that's all

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separate story and I I came back and

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started to work at Maimonides Medical

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Center in Brooklyn New York and that is

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was a research facility looking at dream

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telepathy in fact there's a funny thing

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about that we'd answer the phone hello

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Division of parapsychology may we tell

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you they call it and there would be this

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cognitive dissonance ahead to the flow

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of what a sales going on here but I saw

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more psychic stuff in the basement of

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that building in Brooklyn that I ever

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did anything in India and I ran into

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Ingo Swann and we started working

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together and I'm a research physicist at

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that time and experimentalist knew what

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he was doing some work at SR I couldn't

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tell me much about it because was all

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classified he said gee how would you

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like to come and work I don't want my

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brilliant

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piqué psychokinesis work to go down the

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tubes because somebody flipped the light

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switch and that that's what happened no

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k alright so basically Ingo Swan got me

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my job how about that now is that did

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you get any criticism for looking into

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this type of work from your colleagues

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tons

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oh absolutely there's a bit of a story

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there one of my dear friends and

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colleagues we were business partners and

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physics colleagues the late professor

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Melvin Schwartz and he was a high energy

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physicist at Stanford Linear Accelerator

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Center at SLAC and he thought what I was

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doing was total BS and every time we met

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to do anything together so should he

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would just brag on me like it what the

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hell are you doing waste your time so

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when I took over the directorship of the

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program in 1985 we put together actually

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the army did put together what was

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called scientific Oversight Committee of

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the who's who of science in the country

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and the interest requirement for that

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you had to be a self Perkis captain but

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open-minded so by then Mel Mel had won

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the Nobel Prize in Physics will Leon

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Lederman for the discoverer of the muon

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neutrino so I went to Mel brought him

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down to my house for dinner and I said

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hey Mel how would you like to be on our

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scientific Oversight Committee and I

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said now you know he said well goodness

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sakes that is just I think it's total BS

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why do you want me on on your committee

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and I said there's two reasons one you

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have a Nobel Prize and that looks really

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good on the math end but the real reason

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the real reason is I trust you you're an

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honest scientist he said okay I'll do it

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with one condition listen what's that

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suppose after I am watching you for a

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year because it had to be a five-year

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commitment if after watching you for a

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year I discovered some bold ideas and I

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said well okay if you can convince the

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other members of this committee that

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it's all bs

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that I'll quit and I'll come to work for

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you at Brookhaven National Laboratory in

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New York he's just done I said now we're

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not even close to done so we're talking

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about I said what if watching us free

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and talking to other members of the

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community you come to the conclusion

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there's something worth looking at here

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that caught him off-guard and he said

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I'll tell you what I will spend some

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fraction on my career helping you to

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figure out how it worked you did that up

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to about a year before he passed away

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well amazing isn't that great now how

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and why did the government get involved

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in this uh it's complex

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first off inglis one have done some work

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at the American Society for psychical

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research in in New York City very

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wonderful brownstone place on 73rd

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Street I think and it has obviously you

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know if it's true that's a big if then

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if you can sit in a room and just coop

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it's happening next floor and maybe next

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door in another country and be able to

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describe it without any risk to yourself

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and it's cheap why not give it a go and

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that was part of what started this

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bailout and when ego came to SR I and

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it's all written up and put off in tards

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book called mind reach when he first

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came there they were doing ESP kinds of

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things from this room to the next room

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and bingo had a reputation well deserved

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by my dad as his throwing tantrums and

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he said damn it

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I could look anywhere in the world just

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give me the geographic coordinates many

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place in the world I'll tell you what's

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there and he could Wow at that blew

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apart the whole thing and then other

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people came on that price and hella

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Hammond and other folks were able to do

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this not perfectly by no means not

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perfectly but good enough now now what

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type of person does it take or have you

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looked into that what type of person

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does this take that can actually do this

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type of thing you know anything you can

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think of the government paid and I thank

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you a Martin for your tax money put it

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Larsen where we think is large sums of

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money to examine every question you can

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think of including that one they wanted

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to know who is the cooler psychics and

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who or not

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because they wanted to eventually find

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military people to be psychic spies

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I guess the sad news is with some hand

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waving descriptions we found with that

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job that most of the people that we deal

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with in one sense of any rate are

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boringly normal like the rest of us so

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what what differentiates the good guys

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from the bad guys and that's an

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interesting question and we just

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published a model about a year ago that

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addresses that question neurologically

272
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neurophysiological e of what's going on

273
00:12:01,720 --> 00:11:59,799
here in both synesthesia and

274
00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:01,730
interconnectedness in the brain and

275
00:12:08,049 --> 00:12:04,910
whole bunch of stuff like that if I were

276
00:12:10,449 --> 00:12:08,059
to say who I would pick students would

277
00:12:12,369 --> 00:12:10,459
be the worst case because they're more

278
00:12:14,079 --> 00:12:12,379
worried about everything else but even

279
00:12:16,569 --> 00:12:14,089
if you pay them to come to the lab oh my

280
00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:16,579
god together but if you find anybody

281
00:12:22,210 --> 00:12:19,910
that is happy with their station in life

282
00:12:24,850 --> 00:12:22,220
whether they're garbage collector or a

283
00:12:26,650 --> 00:12:24,860
Supreme Court justice no matter what

284
00:12:29,650 --> 00:12:26,660
they do if they're pleased with their

285
00:12:31,179 --> 00:12:29,660
job and they're good at it then that's a

286
00:12:34,869 --> 00:12:31,189
good thing there's a book on my shelf

287
00:12:37,539 --> 00:12:34,879
behind me called executive ESP by

288
00:12:39,809 --> 00:12:37,549
Douglas Dean and he wrote it in the 70s

289
00:12:42,189 --> 00:12:39,819
and in those days what they did

290
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:42,199
companies would have sort of off-site

291
00:12:48,369 --> 00:12:45,290
team buildings but seminars that would

292
00:12:50,169 --> 00:12:48,379
go for a weekend to try to find out who

293
00:12:52,139 --> 00:12:50,179
should be in the management chain or how

294
00:12:54,159 --> 00:12:52,149
you know to improve the behavior of

295
00:12:57,100 --> 00:12:54,169
upper management in these various

296
00:13:00,129 --> 00:12:57,110
companies and what Dean did was to get

297
00:13:03,309 --> 00:13:00,139
people to agree to allow him to put in a

298
00:13:05,019 --> 00:13:03,319
covert ESP test so among all the other

299
00:13:06,519 --> 00:13:05,029
tests that people were taking they

300
00:13:09,249 --> 00:13:06,529
didn't know this other middle section

301
00:13:12,069 --> 00:13:09,259
was an ESP test and at the end of the

302
00:13:14,049 --> 00:13:12,079
time they broke that blind and sure

303
00:13:15,729 --> 00:13:14,059
enough revealed it was the SP test and

304
00:13:17,470 --> 00:13:15,739
darkness team then sent out

305
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:17,480
questionnaires to find out whether these

306
00:13:22,689 --> 00:13:19,610
people believed in ESP or not what came

307
00:13:26,319 --> 00:13:22,699
out of that is very very interesting

308
00:13:28,419 --> 00:13:26,329
number one the scores on the ESP test by

309
00:13:32,129 --> 00:13:28,429
these executives correlated

310
00:13:34,749 --> 00:13:32,139
significantly with their salary up and

311
00:13:36,820 --> 00:13:34,759
let that sort of hand-waving sort of

312
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:36,830
means you get paid the big bucks for

313
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:39,530
making slightly wiser decisions with the

314
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:41,090
absence of data I mean that's what

315
00:13:45,610 --> 00:13:43,250
rejected jobs are you'd have to be

316
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:45,620
figure out what to go and can never get

317
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:48,170
all the data of me but did not

318
00:13:53,950 --> 00:13:49,970
coordinator at all in their belief in

319
00:13:56,650 --> 00:13:53,960
ESP so they were using sub lis ESP in

320
00:13:57,430 --> 00:13:56,660
some way without having happy to believe

321
00:13:59,560 --> 00:13:57,440
in it at all

322
00:14:02,530 --> 00:13:59,570
so if you have danced your question who

323
00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:02,540
would I find people I find it successful

324
00:14:07,060 --> 00:14:05,510
people bring them into testing and is

325
00:14:09,220 --> 00:14:07,070
that kind of like across the board that

326
00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:09,230
these people have no idea that they have

327
00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:14,690
this skill often it is this is a little

328
00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:17,360
unfair and I admit that up front when

329
00:14:23,170 --> 00:14:19,040
someone comes to me says test me I'm

330
00:14:24,970 --> 00:14:23,180
psychic and less interest it I mean

331
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:24,980
you're good you drive down any of the

332
00:14:28,570 --> 00:14:26,720
streets of Palo Alto there's madam

333
00:14:30,460 --> 00:14:28,580
what's her face and what they have palm

334
00:14:32,350 --> 00:14:30,470
readers and what have you we learned a

335
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:32,360
long time to go leave those people uh

336
00:14:38,860 --> 00:14:34,850
yeah uh-huh

337
00:14:41,890 --> 00:14:38,870
so when when you were interviewing

338
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:41,900
people how did that work how did you

339
00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:44,090
find if the subjects that could do

340
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:46,790
remote viewing and I want to also talk

341
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:49,360
more about what remote viewing actually

342
00:14:54,420 --> 00:14:53,330
is to detail but but how did you find

343
00:14:57,700 --> 00:14:54,430
these people that were

344
00:15:00,910 --> 00:14:57,710
better-than-average I guess that's how

345
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:00,920
you'd put it that that's a very good

346
00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:02,330
question because that again was

347
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:03,950
something that the government was very

348
00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:05,690
much interested in because they want to

349
00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:08,000
have their own cadre of super psychics

350
00:15:16,270 --> 00:15:13,910
trotting the short answer is we haven't

351
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:16,280
o'clock that that's the real festival

352
00:15:21,310 --> 00:15:18,710
artists answer although we have some

353
00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:21,320
ideas now which was way past the

354
00:15:25,810 --> 00:15:24,350
Stargate program about how how a brain

355
00:15:28,030 --> 00:15:25,820
would be structured but that's a

356
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:28,040
testable thing coming up in the in the

357
00:15:32,410 --> 00:15:30,530
near future with my research but back

358
00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:32,420
then what we did

359
00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:38,000
I had a task to serve a fair number of

360
00:15:42,820 --> 00:15:39,680
people maybe three or four hundred

361
00:15:45,130 --> 00:15:42,830
people to find out which one's of those

362
00:15:48,550 --> 00:15:45,140
people were psychic and the bottom line

363
00:15:51,189 --> 00:15:48,560
is about a one in a hundred people

364
00:15:53,410 --> 00:15:51,199
can meet laboratory definitions of

365
00:15:55,989 --> 00:15:53,420
excellence performance and the only way

366
00:15:58,900 --> 00:15:55,999
to find them is to Finn's to have them

367
00:16:03,210 --> 00:15:58,910
do the job in correlations with

368
00:16:06,699 --> 00:16:03,220
creativity correlations with meditation

369
00:16:08,650 --> 00:16:06,709
correlations with interest any of the

370
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:08,660
correlations that are popular among the

371
00:16:12,850 --> 00:16:10,730
description papers in parapsychology

372
00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:12,860
none of those things turned out to be

373
00:16:17,350 --> 00:16:15,199
predictive of behavior in our

374
00:16:19,629 --> 00:16:17,360
circumstance it does work in other

375
00:16:21,759 --> 00:16:19,639
circumstances a trance felt like at

376
00:16:24,189 --> 00:16:21,769
Edinboro and so on for the remote

377
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:24,199
viewing like stuff but our particular

378
00:16:32,079 --> 00:16:27,410
task was different than all the other

379
00:16:35,139 --> 00:16:32,089
kind of ESP work for example we told our

380
00:16:38,049 --> 00:16:35,149
people we don't want you to tell us in

381
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:38,059
our interview what the target reminds

382
00:16:43,239 --> 00:16:40,970
you of you know like your mother's apple

383
00:16:45,009 --> 00:16:43,249
pie in the window cooling no no that's

384
00:16:46,660 --> 00:16:45,019
not what's happening in Russia I don't

385
00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:46,670
want to know what your mothers having ty

386
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:49,040
I want to know what is actually

387
00:16:53,499 --> 00:16:50,930
happening in Russia when you task you to

388
00:16:56,079 --> 00:16:53,509
go there and that is a different

389
00:16:58,929 --> 00:16:56,089
approach and if public plays a big role

390
00:17:01,480 --> 00:16:58,939
in trying to figure out who you bring in

391
00:17:05,049 --> 00:17:01,490
to do this this kind of dicey now the

392
00:17:09,069 --> 00:17:05,059
double-blind test that that's another I

393
00:17:12,279 --> 00:17:09,079
heard you mention that before so can you

394
00:17:15,429 --> 00:17:12,289
explain how that works how how you test

395
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:15,439
someone with a double-blind test right

396
00:17:20,380 --> 00:17:17,329
let's suppose you're going to be the

397
00:17:24,699 --> 00:17:20,390
remote viewer to that boy and I'm going

398
00:17:27,669 --> 00:17:24,709
to be your inhaler and someone who

399
00:17:30,340 --> 00:17:27,679
neither of us knows is going to generate

400
00:17:32,830 --> 00:17:30,350
a target photograph or a target location

401
00:17:35,770 --> 00:17:32,840
for you to describe I won't know that

402
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:35,780
person I don't even know the set of

403
00:17:40,419 --> 00:17:38,450
possible places they will choose that

404
00:17:43,899 --> 00:17:40,429
person has never met you and that person

405
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:43,909
uses a random procedure to pick say one

406
00:17:49,389 --> 00:17:46,130
out of 300 pictures all right I don't

407
00:17:52,149 --> 00:17:49,399
know what are there so I don't know what

408
00:17:54,010 --> 00:17:52,159
the target is that means I am blind all

409
00:17:55,659 --> 00:17:54,020
right and you certainly don't know

410
00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:55,669
that's why it's called a double blind

411
00:18:00,909 --> 00:17:58,640
and that's the only valid way you can

412
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:00,919
guarantee that something interesting is

413
00:18:05,290 --> 00:18:01,970
going on well

414
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:05,300
and would you say that you have seen

415
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:07,130
things that have just like blown you

416
00:18:14,170 --> 00:18:09,650
away that you just can't imagine how how

417
00:18:16,750 --> 00:18:14,180
it happened yeah a lot of them I could

418
00:18:20,730 --> 00:18:16,760
talk for the text too without first with

419
00:18:23,470 --> 00:18:20,740
examples let me give you just a tunic

420
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:23,480
one is well known one of our best people

421
00:18:29,890 --> 00:18:26,330
is a fellow named Joseph mcmoneagle

422
00:18:32,110 --> 00:18:29,900
retired Warrant Officer from the Army

423
00:18:36,730 --> 00:18:32,120
the NSC the National Security Council

424
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:36,740
gave tasking to describe what is going

425
00:18:43,090 --> 00:18:39,170
on in this building in in town in

426
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:43,100
northern Russia called sfera Dvinsk it's

427
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:44,960
been known since the 40s as a submarine

428
00:18:50,380 --> 00:18:48,050
base for sure and there was a big

429
00:18:53,710 --> 00:18:50,390
building and satellite photographs of

430
00:18:55,540 --> 00:18:53,720
that era could look in at the side and

431
00:18:57,460 --> 00:18:55,550
see something was going on inside the

432
00:18:59,170 --> 00:18:57,470
building but they really desperately

433
00:19:04,090 --> 00:18:59,180
wanted to know because they have no idea

434
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:04,100
and so Joe was given a week they were

435
00:19:08,170 --> 00:19:06,410
given a photograph satellite photographs

436
00:19:10,930 --> 00:19:08,180
of the roofs of the building that was

437
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:10,940
put in the double sealed envelope etc

438
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:13,490
etc and that was put in front of Joe in

439
00:19:16,570 --> 00:19:15,290
a double-blind way the first you were

440
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:16,580
stuck at there didn't even know where

441
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:18,890
the testing came from this sounds really

442
00:19:25,060 --> 00:19:22,370
strange but it that's what happened and

443
00:19:27,250 --> 00:19:25,070
we say Joe the target of the day is a

444
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:27,260
photograph inside this envelope and the

445
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:28,850
person who said that had no idea what

446
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:32,210
the photograph was Joe gave maybe 30

447
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:35,770
pages some of it is immoral online

448
00:19:41,260 --> 00:19:38,930
described in glowing detail the

449
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:41,270
construction of a huge submarine that

450
00:19:46,450 --> 00:19:44,330
was double hauled and who you cattle

451
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:46,460
around like submarine with an outer skin

452
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:49,490
and it dwarfed a World War 2 level

453
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:50,240
submarine

454
00:19:55,930 --> 00:19:52,810
how many missile tubes and it had a

455
00:20:00,150 --> 00:19:55,940
magneto a hydro magneto propulsion

456
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:00,160
system etc etc etc and that was done in

457
00:20:06,910 --> 00:20:04,970
1979 and September 23rd 1980 they

458
00:20:09,010 --> 00:20:06,920
launched from that facility what the

459
00:20:11,020 --> 00:20:09,020
West calls the typhoon-class submarine

460
00:20:14,170 --> 00:20:11,030
in Russia I think it's called the Akua

461
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:14,180
meaning the shark it is enormous in the

462
00:20:16,910 --> 00:20:15,450
fact they

463
00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:16,920
the movie the hunt for the Red October

464
00:20:24,410 --> 00:20:21,000
was loosely based on that sign known as

465
00:20:25,610 --> 00:20:24,420
he amazing yeah isn't that something and

466
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:25,620
what was it you said you're going to

467
00:20:32,270 --> 00:20:28,410
give a couple examples I'll give you the

468
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:32,280
second one which is more local through a

469
00:20:35,930 --> 00:20:34,410
long chain a colleague of mine was

470
00:20:42,230 --> 00:20:35,940
working in the West Wing of the White

471
00:20:44,450 --> 00:20:42,240
House under Clinton and she was a Maison

472
00:20:47,540 --> 00:20:44,460
to the center very interesting woman and

473
00:20:50,270 --> 00:20:47,550
I knew her personally through a friend

474
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:50,280
and she called me up one day while she

475
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:51,810
was working there says oh my God my

476
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:53,730
twenty-something daughter has failed to

477
00:20:58,610 --> 00:20:56,310
show up at work can you help us find her

478
00:21:00,680 --> 00:20:58,620
and I said for crying out loud you have

479
00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:00,690
you know the Secret Service the FBI and

480
00:21:05,810 --> 00:21:02,940
all the alphabet soup wife calling the

481
00:21:07,820 --> 00:21:05,820
he she said I can't use government

482
00:21:13,910 --> 00:21:07,830
resources on a personal case that good

483
00:21:16,790 --> 00:21:13,920
so I said okay so I test two people one

484
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:16,800
of whom is taking mainly now dr. Nevin

485
00:21:21,020 --> 00:21:18,810
Lance he's worked with me for years

486
00:21:24,110 --> 00:21:21,030
he's not only a decent psychic but he's

487
00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:24,120
also was in charge of the personality

488
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:26,430
factors he's a PhD psychologist all

489
00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:29,130
right he gave a glowing description of

490
00:21:36,650 --> 00:21:33,390
this person that was she was having a

491
00:21:39,650 --> 00:21:36,660
psychotic break but she was okay not in

492
00:21:42,410 --> 00:21:39,660
any physical danger and Joe and one

493
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:42,420
other person gave enough material that

494
00:21:50,270 --> 00:21:45,710
the FBI can go get her and they did

495
00:21:52,340 --> 00:21:50,280
amazing I mean and I I thought wow the

496
00:21:54,620 --> 00:21:52,350
West Wing is really happy about us throw

497
00:21:59,120 --> 00:21:54,630
money which we didn't get anything

498
00:22:02,300 --> 00:21:59,130
really now yeah so was funding often an

499
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:02,310
issue was a seller and what type of

500
00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:06,510
budget was it was it a yearly budget uh

501
00:22:11,660 --> 00:22:09,990
it was very spotty uh first of all let

502
00:22:17,390 --> 00:22:11,670
me say a lot of people think of this as

503
00:22:19,790 --> 00:22:17,400
a CIA program um CAA gave a hundred and

504
00:22:24,850 --> 00:22:19,800
ninety something thousand dollars on

505
00:22:29,250 --> 00:22:27,170
the two biggest funders were in the

506
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:29,260
Defense Intelligence Agency

507
00:22:33,150 --> 00:22:30,970
and I had a contract with the army

508
00:22:35,909 --> 00:22:33,160
medical research and development command

509
00:22:37,169 --> 00:22:35,919
initially for ten million dollars to

510
00:22:39,419 --> 00:22:37,179
conduct research

511
00:22:41,220 --> 00:22:39,429
I only saw six and a half million with

512
00:22:43,770 --> 00:22:41,230
that before they quit giving the money

513
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:43,780
about the early days there were places

514
00:22:47,669 --> 00:22:45,850
where our management was walking up down

515
00:22:49,020 --> 00:22:47,679
the hall measuring the drapes to get us

516
00:22:52,169 --> 00:22:49,030
out of here because we didn't have any

517
00:22:53,820 --> 00:22:52,179
friend well on the average when I when

518
00:22:59,789 --> 00:22:53,830
we were at s RI Stanford Research

519
00:23:02,820 --> 00:22:59,799
Institute from 1972 to 1989 it averaged

520
00:23:05,310 --> 00:23:02,830
about 750 thousand dollars a year that

521
00:23:07,530 --> 00:23:05,320
sounds great but let me tell you there

522
00:23:09,180 --> 00:23:07,540
was a huge variance sometimes there was

523
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:09,190
no money and they're ready to fire us

524
00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:11,290
all and then lots of money we can hire

525
00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:12,700
people and then he had to fire them just

526
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:14,950
and ran out of money and so on the

527
00:23:20,909 --> 00:23:18,850
steady money came and I was lucky when I

528
00:23:23,450 --> 00:23:20,919
took over the program building on very

529
00:23:25,860 --> 00:23:23,460
tall shoulders a foot off and tart

530
00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:25,870
establishing very good relationships

531
00:23:30,299 --> 00:23:27,520
with funding Chambliss and I spent

532
00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:30,309
probably 40% of my time racing back and

533
00:23:33,539 --> 00:23:32,110
forth to Washington making sure money

534
00:23:36,090 --> 00:23:33,549
and it was successful

535
00:23:39,539 --> 00:23:36,100
Manning directly from the Congress Wow

536
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:39,549
well in the chat room niihka wants to

537
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:43,210
know what what can you say about the KC

538
00:23:50,430 --> 00:23:48,610
denial KC denial I know about Edgar

539
00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:50,440
Cayce a little okay I don't

540
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:51,820
sorry I thought that was something

541
00:23:56,549 --> 00:23:54,610
something you may I didn't really

542
00:23:58,169 --> 00:23:56,559
understand that's who I thought it was

543
00:23:59,640 --> 00:23:58,179
talking about but I didn't really get

544
00:24:06,090 --> 00:23:59,650
the question either I thought you might

545
00:24:11,039 --> 00:24:06,100
though so what is let's say ESP what is

546
00:24:13,409 --> 00:24:11,049
what would you consider ESP and is well

547
00:24:21,980 --> 00:24:13,419
I'm going to bluntly asked who is ESP

548
00:24:27,270 --> 00:24:21,990
real oh okay I'll take the back

549
00:24:29,070 --> 00:24:27,280
if it turns out probably exit it was I

550
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:29,080
don't think Jamie Jamie

551
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:34,090
John Joseph Banks Brian who basically

552
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:35,530
was the father of research

553
00:24:40,860 --> 00:24:38,890
parapsychology in the country at first

554
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:40,870
at Duke University and then at the

555
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:42,930
foundation for the research of nature

556
00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:48,210
man he defined X extrasensory perception

557
00:24:54,830 --> 00:24:51,420
with the term extra meaning it's ways of

558
00:24:57,380 --> 00:24:54,840
gathering information about the world in

559
00:24:59,630 --> 00:24:57,390
ways that are not involved in the five

560
00:25:01,460 --> 00:24:59,640
known sensory systems in other words you

561
00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:01,470
don't see it hear it smell it taste it

562
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:04,220
feel it any of that sort of stuff and

563
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:06,570
that doesn't tell you anything about

564
00:25:10,550 --> 00:25:09,120
what ESP actually is it tells you about

565
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:10,560
a whole lot of stuff but what it isn't

566
00:25:15,140 --> 00:25:13,440
and so when you design an experiment you

567
00:25:18,290 --> 00:25:15,150
have to make sure that there isn't any

568
00:25:20,660 --> 00:25:18,300
you know sneaky things with radar with

569
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:20,670
radios transmitters or receivers in

570
00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:22,770
people's ear so there isn't cheating you

571
00:25:26,750 --> 00:25:24,720
have to make sure that there's no other

572
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:26,760
way to get the information other than

573
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:30,690
that by some unknown way doesn't tell

574
00:25:35,270 --> 00:25:33,360
you anything so let me make a very geeky

575
00:25:38,660 --> 00:25:35,280
statement for you since you asked if I

576
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:38,670
believe even less treatment here comes

577
00:25:43,250 --> 00:25:40,050
the geeky statement there's

578
00:25:46,340 --> 00:25:43,260
incontrovertible evidence for an

579
00:25:48,890 --> 00:25:46,350
information transfer anomaly we

580
00:25:51,170 --> 00:25:48,900
currently do not understand doesn't see

581
00:25:53,780 --> 00:25:51,180
anything at all about ESP but I'll go to

582
00:25:56,420 --> 00:25:53,790
the map to defend that and so will

583
00:25:58,580 --> 00:25:56,430
professor Jessica Utz what the nation's

584
00:26:01,030 --> 00:25:58,590
leading statistician but she was just

585
00:26:07,490 --> 00:26:01,040
stepped down as the president of the

586
00:26:09,170 --> 00:26:07,500
American Association and she worked in

587
00:26:12,260 --> 00:26:09,180
my lab for a year as a visiting

588
00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:12,270
scientist she says look ESP meets of the

589
00:26:16,610 --> 00:26:14,790
research at ESP needs all the standard

590
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:16,620
definitions of what constitutes a

591
00:26:23,470 --> 00:26:19,170
genuine phenomenon it is in my view a

592
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:23,480
genuine comment and how is it viewed by

593
00:26:30,670 --> 00:26:26,610
how did you find this is viewed by the

594
00:26:33,530 --> 00:26:30,680
media the American media list to say

595
00:26:36,590 --> 00:26:33,540
that's a very interesting question I'm

596
00:26:41,060 --> 00:26:36,600
on it it's a little disappointing most

597
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:41,070
the time American culture on one hand

598
00:26:45,290 --> 00:26:43,440
loves this stuff you know you all the

599
00:26:46,670 --> 00:26:45,300
movies and the books and you know the

600
00:26:49,090 --> 00:26:46,680
calls in the newspaper for your

601
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:49,100
horoscopes and all of that kind of stuff

602
00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:52,530
in some sense the American culture is

603
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:54,240
almost too much believing in this

604
00:26:59,660 --> 00:26:56,730
material it happens too fast

605
00:27:03,320 --> 00:26:59,670
on the other hand the scientists kind of

606
00:27:05,450 --> 00:27:03,330
rejected out of hand for a variety of

607
00:27:09,530 --> 00:27:05,460
reasons and one of the reasons I think

608
00:27:13,310 --> 00:27:09,540
is that culturally the judeo-christian

609
00:27:15,140 --> 00:27:13,320
or Abrahamic religions it actually says

610
00:27:18,740 --> 00:27:15,150
that this is the work of the devil

611
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:18,750
Illuminati and you know powerful people

612
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:20,640
with the rich witch trials where they

613
00:27:24,860 --> 00:27:22,650
burn people at the stake for having

614
00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:24,870
manifested this and other powerful

615
00:27:29,930 --> 00:27:29,460
things that women can do and that's too

616
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:29,940
bad

617
00:27:34,460 --> 00:27:32,010
and as a result for example I won't name

618
00:27:37,010 --> 00:27:34,470
the organization we did go make monocle

619
00:27:39,950 --> 00:27:37,020
I did a whole series on live television

620
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:39,960
for nationwide television organization

621
00:27:44,420 --> 00:27:42,450
and they were thrilled they were

622
00:27:46,550 --> 00:27:44,430
absolutely thrilled and then editing

623
00:27:48,650 --> 00:27:46,560
made us look like idiots I've heard of

624
00:27:51,830 --> 00:27:48,660
that why would they believe this it's

625
00:27:53,570 --> 00:27:51,840
just terrible and for the most part I

626
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:53,580
don't do American media you're an

627
00:28:00,800 --> 00:27:57,330
exception at all for media on the other

628
00:28:03,650 --> 00:28:00,810
hand Treatise love lip balm and in

629
00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:03,660
Russia much to my surprise there

630
00:28:08,390 --> 00:28:05,760
people are upper level people all

631
00:28:10,610 --> 00:28:08,400
falling all over themselves let me give

632
00:28:13,070 --> 00:28:10,620
one example here I can mention his name

633
00:28:16,460 --> 00:28:13,080
has given me permission and his name is

634
00:28:19,820 --> 00:28:16,470
dr. Jack Verona

635
00:28:22,010 --> 00:28:19,830
he's a career intelligence officer he

636
00:28:25,180 --> 00:28:22,020
has a PhD in physics very smart fellow

637
00:28:27,950 --> 00:28:25,190
and almost single-handedly responsible

638
00:28:30,650 --> 00:28:27,960
for the continuation of the government

639
00:28:33,230 --> 00:28:30,660
funding very smart fellow he's given me

640
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:33,240
permission a to use his name be write

641
00:28:39,410 --> 00:28:35,690
anything I want about him he absolutely

642
00:28:42,980 --> 00:28:39,420
refuses flatly refuses to write anything

643
00:28:45,470 --> 00:28:42,990
himself about this part of that I think

644
00:28:47,450 --> 00:28:45,480
it's because even though he's 8 he's in

645
00:28:48,980 --> 00:28:47,460
his early eighties and retired he

646
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:48,990
doesn't want to be dragged to the media

647
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:51,450
give you one example on one exception

648
00:28:57,740 --> 00:28:54,480
back from a colleague and I are working

649
00:28:59,510 --> 00:28:57,750
at publishing all of the research that

650
00:29:04,760 --> 00:28:59,520
was carried out by funded by the

651
00:29:07,580 --> 00:29:04,770
government from 1972 to 1985 and here is

652
00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:07,590
a cover of the first such book you can

653
00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:08,800
go on Amazon

654
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:11,320
look for the Stargate archives and this

655
00:29:15,780 --> 00:29:14,080
will appear and I doubt your people can

656
00:29:18,150 --> 00:29:15,790
read it but what it says at the bottom

657
00:29:21,990 --> 00:29:18,160
this is Laurie one everything you want

658
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:22,000
to know about remote viewing from 1972

659
00:29:28,890 --> 00:29:26,170
to 1984 anything how to find people how

660
00:29:30,930 --> 00:29:28,900
to do the analysis what the criteria are

661
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:30,940
what the correlations within to the your

662
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:33,490
but at the bottom here it says foreword

663
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:35,730
by William s Cohen

664
00:29:43,410 --> 00:29:42,010
William s Cohen was a minority leader of

665
00:29:46,050 --> 00:29:43,420
the Senate Intelligence Committee

666
00:29:48,570 --> 00:29:46,060
Republican minority leader and later

667
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:48,580
became Secretary of Defense under under

668
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:51,370
Bill Clinton he wrote a fortress wow

669
00:29:56,850 --> 00:29:54,610
that's great yeah he was very brave to

670
00:30:01,350 --> 00:29:56,860
come yes absolutely

671
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:01,360
now what about the eastern culture you

672
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:02,530
know you're talking about the Western

673
00:30:08,610 --> 00:30:05,170
culture mostly but how do they view this

674
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:08,620
or did they even get involved in trying

675
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:12,370
to do this type of research oh very much

676
00:30:19,310 --> 00:30:16,480
so I'm not close buddies with a KGB ex

677
00:30:22,290 --> 00:30:19,320
KGB guys one of the books that we wrote

678
00:30:26,610 --> 00:30:22,300
the deputy director of KGB both the

679
00:30:29,250 --> 00:30:26,620
former verbal divorce it's a little bit

680
00:30:33,330 --> 00:30:29,260
complicated because in the official

681
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:33,340
communist idea is this can't happen but

682
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:35,710
nobody paid attention to that the KGB

683
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:38,110
was using this stuff back in the early

684
00:30:46,580 --> 00:30:42,720
70s a very famous now no longer with us

685
00:30:49,380 --> 00:30:46,590
imple at mosaic Cogan an information

686
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:49,390
scientist wrote an article in the 60s

687
00:30:56,250 --> 00:30:51,850
that was republished in the 7th early

688
00:30:58,590 --> 00:30:56,260
70s called is telepathy possible and he

689
00:31:01,440 --> 00:30:58,600
argued that the way that works is our

690
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:01,450
brain is like a an oscillator for a

691
00:31:06,750 --> 00:31:04,090
radio and our body is like a 2 meter

692
00:31:08,690 --> 00:31:06,760
antenna radiating our thoughts out in

693
00:31:11,970 --> 00:31:08,700
very low frequency electromagnetic

694
00:31:15,420 --> 00:31:11,980
radiation and that terrified the West in

695
00:31:17,490 --> 00:31:15,430
fact we have money to test that idea so

696
00:31:19,710 --> 00:31:17,500
we did remote viewing in a submerged

697
00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:19,720
submersible at the 80 meters down the

698
00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:22,960
mountain killed a teenager is that right

699
00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:26,320
yes we had this blanket see what around

700
00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:29,049
us and show that that didn't stop the

701
00:31:36,119 --> 00:31:33,070
frilly some years later I met Koga in in

702
00:31:38,129 --> 00:31:36,129
Moscow and I said professors in order to

703
00:31:40,259 --> 00:31:38,139
meet you and I'm shaking his hand I said

704
00:31:42,989 --> 00:31:40,269
I've got good news of bad she said what

705
00:31:44,940 --> 00:31:42,999
is it I said the bad news is your idea

706
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:44,950
of telepathy being an oscillator in the

707
00:31:47,970 --> 00:31:46,960
body so it's just not right so I'm glad

708
00:31:50,879 --> 00:31:47,980
to hear you say that

709
00:31:53,249 --> 00:31:50,889
I don't think so anymore either and then

710
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:53,259
I told him about entropy or this idea

711
00:31:58,409 --> 00:31:56,799
very complicated issue and he brought it

712
00:32:00,869 --> 00:31:58,419
up and I said we've done research on

713
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:00,879
that and you're absolutely spot-on we

714
00:32:05,549 --> 00:32:02,710
became close friends into every dive Wow

715
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:05,559
is that something so now what about the

716
00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:07,600
use of drugs you know you hear that

717
00:32:10,769 --> 00:32:09,220
government you know experimented with

718
00:32:14,129 --> 00:32:10,779
LSD and all kinds of things like that

719
00:32:17,539 --> 00:32:14,139
was there any use of drugs with any of

720
00:32:20,999 --> 00:32:17,549
the people trying to do these things not

721
00:32:23,789 --> 00:32:21,009
in our program but before I joined it I

722
00:32:26,279 --> 00:32:23,799
work at Maimonides Medical Center back

723
00:32:30,869 --> 00:32:26,289
in the 70s raw bunch of hippies so there

724
00:32:33,180 --> 00:32:30,879
was a lot of experimentation effects and

725
00:32:34,830 --> 00:32:33,190
and what that happened it's this really

726
00:32:37,710 --> 00:32:34,840
important and it's the basis of our

727
00:32:39,989 --> 00:32:37,720
neurological model contrary to what I

728
00:32:41,970 --> 00:32:39,999
ask of people to tell you and mushroom

729
00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:41,980
people will tell you and LSD people will

730
00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:43,840
die and all that stuff all that

731
00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:47,049
chemistry goes on creating wondrous

732
00:32:53,009 --> 00:32:50,289
things in your head but that's in your

733
00:32:55,379 --> 00:32:53,019
head okay if it just raises the noise

734
00:32:57,479 --> 00:32:55,389
level in your head for really as peak

735
00:33:00,599 --> 00:32:57,489
coming in from the outside hitting him

736
00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:00,609
it's strong ESP functioning I know I'm

737
00:33:04,229 --> 00:33:02,350
going to have all other nasty emails my

738
00:33:06,060 --> 00:33:04,239
shamans all over the world on basis of

739
00:33:08,940 --> 00:33:06,070
that but that's what the data Wow

740
00:33:13,019 --> 00:33:08,950
and what about this conversation came up

741
00:33:15,779 --> 00:33:13,029
recently in I did a show with a guy that

742
00:33:17,519 --> 00:33:15,789
was that thinks that we've been visited

743
00:33:20,399 --> 00:33:17,529
by extra dimensional like

744
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:20,409
interdimensional beings up and I try to

745
00:33:25,379 --> 00:33:22,960
be open-minded of I wasn't really sure

746
00:33:29,129 --> 00:33:25,389
what to think about that but so I asked

747
00:33:33,239 --> 00:33:29,139
him this question and I said well what

748
00:33:35,670 --> 00:33:33,249
would like today's technology compared

749
00:33:38,100 --> 00:33:35,680
to say

750
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:38,110
things have changed so much since 1985

751
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:39,850
when this program ended I think that's

752
00:33:45,150 --> 00:33:42,880
when you said it was now we have so many

753
00:33:47,010 --> 00:33:45,160
things bombarded at us

754
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:47,020
radio waves of different types I think

755
00:33:52,380 --> 00:33:50,410
we have for many many years but do you

756
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:52,390
think that would you talked about

757
00:33:57,780 --> 00:33:55,810
submerse under the sea and that didn't

758
00:33:59,730 --> 00:33:57,790
change anything do you think that the

759
00:34:03,780 --> 00:33:59,740
radio waves would change anything at all

760
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:03,790
that we're bombarded with I don't think

761
00:34:08,970 --> 00:34:06,910
so uh your people worried about you I

762
00:34:10,950 --> 00:34:08,980
live in California everybody's a little

763
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:10,960
bit nutso have you heard you know if you

764
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:12,490
don't want to have a house underneath

765
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:15,250
the power lines in fact very well-known

766
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:19,090
I think now like the late frost 80 was

767
00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:21,970
pushing very hard on the dangers of 60

768
00:34:27,390 --> 00:34:24,790
cycle 60 Hertz radiation which is we're

769
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:27,400
all bathed in that all the time and

770
00:34:31,590 --> 00:34:30,010
they're you know the SEC the the physic

771
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:31,600
people Zelo or the radiation is so

772
00:34:36,630 --> 00:34:33,850
smaller can't hurt but if you look at

773
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:36,640
the pharmacology of such stuff of drugs

774
00:34:43,050 --> 00:34:40,690
and enm radiation the effects drop as

775
00:34:45,420 --> 00:34:43,060
the intensity drops but then again at

776
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:45,430
very low intensities and me was pushing

777
00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:49,650
really hard on the dangers of you know

778
00:34:54,410 --> 00:34:52,720
alternating current 60 Hertz I don't

779
00:34:57,240 --> 00:34:54,420
know the Russians are really big on this

780
00:35:00,330 --> 00:34:57,250
that's still open question whether it

781
00:35:02,390 --> 00:35:00,340
does in our model about precognition how

782
00:35:08,460 --> 00:35:02,400
that works and it's a very testable

783
00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:08,470
model in the brain we don't think e e NM

784
00:35:14,250 --> 00:35:11,590
electricity magnetism plays a role but

785
00:35:18,090 --> 00:35:14,260
the fact that people's sensory systems

786
00:35:21,570 --> 00:35:18,100
normal sensory systems like vision the

787
00:35:24,180 --> 00:35:21,580
the people that are that may prove to be

788
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:24,190
good psychics have an extended visual

789
00:35:27,420 --> 00:35:25,810
range let's say see a little bit more

790
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:27,430
need for it a little bit more in the

791
00:35:33,420 --> 00:35:29,530
ultraviolet than the average bear that's

792
00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:33,430
a testable hypothesis that we propose

793
00:35:37,950 --> 00:35:35,440
and shortly and then the next year we'll

794
00:35:40,650 --> 00:35:37,960
be testing it offshore down in Brazil

795
00:35:43,590 --> 00:35:40,660
actually with some scientists now that's

796
00:35:47,010 --> 00:35:43,600
interesting now getting back to the

797
00:35:49,530 --> 00:35:47,020
question that Nica asked in the chat

798
00:35:51,540 --> 00:35:49,540
room he was more definitive now

799
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:51,550
thought he meant edgar cayce as well the

800
00:35:57,230 --> 00:35:54,490
you know the supposed psychic but what

801
00:36:01,200 --> 00:35:57,240
he was asking about was the former CIA

802
00:36:04,410 --> 00:36:01,210
director William Casey hadn't okay so

803
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:04,420
William Casey up had denied wrote me

804
00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:07,090
viewing and up just he just wants to

805
00:36:11,310 --> 00:36:08,640
know your take on it

806
00:36:13,530 --> 00:36:11,320
well I have a memo signed by him

807
00:36:16,890 --> 00:36:13,540
starting to progress there right yeah

808
00:36:20,010 --> 00:36:16,900
yeah I mean I can show you it's really

809
00:36:22,260 --> 00:36:20,020
there's so it's going to be in its it's

810
00:36:23,610 --> 00:36:22,270
going to be in the archive books that'll

811
00:36:25,770 --> 00:36:23,620
be out by the appoint for at the end of

812
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:25,780
the year his signature Oh now does that

813
00:36:32,670 --> 00:36:28,480
mean that he just wanted to downplay it

814
00:36:35,130 --> 00:36:32,680
do you think well he's signing off on

815
00:36:38,250 --> 00:36:35,140
what turned out to be a very very very

816
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:38,260
secret program and you don't want to

817
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:40,570
admit the jury for example when I got

818
00:36:46,170 --> 00:36:44,290
I've had clearances since I was under

819
00:36:48,450 --> 00:36:46,180
graduate school short for the RAND

820
00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:48,460
Corporation in Santa Monica and I had a

821
00:36:53,910 --> 00:36:52,000
top secret clearance then and except for

822
00:36:55,290 --> 00:36:53,920
a few times in graduate school it didn't

823
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:55,300
have parent says but I want to start

824
00:37:01,350 --> 00:36:57,130
working that's right I had to get a

825
00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:01,360
clearance just to be on campus and you

826
00:37:06,330 --> 00:37:03,790
know the FBI runs around and asks all

827
00:37:09,540 --> 00:37:06,340
your people I get this panic phone call

828
00:37:11,010 --> 00:37:09,550
from Chuck Arlington what the FBI guy

829
00:37:12,450 --> 00:37:11,020
showed up at are interviewing me for

830
00:37:14,010 --> 00:37:12,460
clearance for you how come you're

831
00:37:17,340 --> 00:37:14,020
getting it clearance so I had to lie to

832
00:37:19,830 --> 00:37:17,350
him to say oh you can't be at us or I

833
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:19,840
unless you have a clearance because what

834
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:22,330
was classified was the fact that our

835
00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:25,090
program was classified which made it

836
00:37:30,570 --> 00:37:28,240
really opinion about yeah yeah speaking

837
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:30,580
of that you know classified program um

838
00:37:37,500 --> 00:37:33,490
did you have to stay hush-hush about

839
00:37:39,540 --> 00:37:37,510
this after the program ended or were you

840
00:37:44,460 --> 00:37:39,550
debriefed and told you know you could

841
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:44,470
say certain things about this uh yes and

842
00:37:50,130 --> 00:37:46,570
no I was debriefed on some of my

843
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:50,140
clearances but the CIA released

844
00:37:57,990 --> 00:37:53,610
knowledge that the program existed in

845
00:38:00,810 --> 00:37:58,000
1995 and you can look up a Nightline

846
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:00,820
with Ted Koppel and I think November

847
00:38:06,540 --> 00:38:02,650
1995 I was

848
00:38:08,910 --> 00:38:06,550
that show with the former director of

849
00:38:12,030 --> 00:38:08,920
CIA gates who became Secretary of

850
00:38:13,950 --> 00:38:12,040
Defense and a person that I suggested

851
00:38:17,220 --> 00:38:13,960
beyond the program only identified as

852
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:17,230
normal CIA a guy and me and three of us

853
00:38:21,930 --> 00:38:19,690
were on this program talking about it in

854
00:38:26,730 --> 00:38:21,940
the open in the open so everything's and

855
00:38:30,380 --> 00:38:26,740
in year 2000 and continues today the CIA

856
00:38:33,540 --> 00:38:30,390
released 89 thousand pages of our reps

857
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:33,550
amazing yeah and now some of it is still

858
00:38:37,710 --> 00:38:35,290
classified and probably still should be

859
00:38:38,940 --> 00:38:37,720
but almost all of it is that's that's

860
00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:38,950
why we're putting together these

861
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:41,110
archives which will be available to

862
00:38:46,130 --> 00:38:42,610
everybody now how many people were

863
00:38:50,550 --> 00:38:46,140
involved would you say as a total of

864
00:38:52,260 --> 00:38:50,560
involved in the the Stargate oh very

865
00:38:55,980 --> 00:38:52,270
interesting there are two aspects of

866
00:38:58,320 --> 00:38:55,990
Star Trek from 1972 to about late 1978

867
00:39:00,330 --> 00:38:58,330
it was all done at Stanford Research

868
00:39:04,710 --> 00:39:00,340
Institute called Essaouira International

869
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:04,720
now all right probably less than 20

870
00:39:15,150 --> 00:39:09,040
during that area less than 20 ah but you

871
00:39:19,020 --> 00:39:15,160
you generated 80,000 papers we were a

872
00:39:21,030 --> 00:39:19,030
paper mill oh one of the things that we

873
00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:21,040
did for example when I took over the

874
00:39:24,570 --> 00:39:22,780
program and I had this ten million

875
00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:24,580
dollar contract two million dollars a

876
00:39:31,020 --> 00:39:27,430
year for five years I had a staff of 12

877
00:39:33,620 --> 00:39:31,030
people plus a whole lot of subcontracts

878
00:39:35,610 --> 00:39:33,630
in different places around the world and

879
00:39:38,790 --> 00:39:35,620
consultants and what had it was a big

880
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:38,800
program and my first contract I had 30

881
00:39:42,450 --> 00:39:40,930
you know I know what when you have a

882
00:39:44,100 --> 00:39:42,460
contract in federal government

883
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:44,110
they give what's called a work statement

884
00:39:49,830 --> 00:39:45,760
they don't just give you money and say

885
00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:49,840
have fun we all want that instead they

886
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:52,240
say okay here are a bunch of items we

887
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:53,710
want you to do and here's how much money

888
00:39:57,090 --> 00:39:55,690
you can spend on each of these items and

889
00:39:58,890 --> 00:39:57,100
if you run out of money and this one you

890
00:40:01,680 --> 00:39:58,900
can't take money from here to put over

891
00:40:05,310 --> 00:40:01,690
there it's very rigid as to what they

892
00:40:11,220 --> 00:40:05,320
ask us to do and so in my first year I

893
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:11,230
have 38 separate tasks to do and each

894
00:40:15,930 --> 00:40:13,330
one of those have quarterly reports and

895
00:40:16,349 --> 00:40:15,940
in annual reports and the scientific

896
00:40:18,420 --> 00:40:16,359
over

897
00:40:20,940 --> 00:40:18,430
that committee had to review it and that

898
00:40:22,620 --> 00:40:20,950
went in there I mean I spent my time

899
00:40:25,829 --> 00:40:22,630
writing and raising money for the most

900
00:40:28,799 --> 00:40:25,839
fun yeah I bet now is there anyone

901
00:40:31,339 --> 00:40:28,809
actually exploring this topic now

902
00:40:35,970 --> 00:40:31,349
anywhere in the world

903
00:40:39,269 --> 00:40:35,980
tons two books that we have online right

904
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:39,279
now let's make sure I get the title

905
00:40:43,380 --> 00:40:42,130
correct here it is it's the two ball I'm

906
00:40:45,390 --> 00:40:43,390
set called

907
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:45,400
extrasensory perception support

908
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:48,970
skepticism and science vol 2 of this to

909
00:40:53,609 --> 00:40:51,130
bottom said is all about theories of ESP

910
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:53,619
it not works why one will answer that

911
00:40:59,069 --> 00:40:56,730
question gory detail we outlined all the

912
00:41:02,039 --> 00:40:59,079
almost all the research places around

913
00:41:04,710 --> 00:41:02,049
the world it used to be America was the

914
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:04,720
center of research right now there are

915
00:41:09,089 --> 00:41:06,880
very few places doing this and work in

916
00:41:12,329 --> 00:41:09,099
this country institutionalize I think

917
00:41:16,249 --> 00:41:12,339
there's only two that I'm aware of three

918
00:41:19,079 --> 00:41:16,259
now University of West Georgia the

919
00:41:21,539 --> 00:41:19,089
Institute for noetic Sciences in Lorain

920
00:41:23,759 --> 00:41:21,549
County and us the laboratories for

921
00:41:25,999 --> 00:41:23,769
fundamental research that's all that's

922
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:26,009
happening in the u.s. institutionalized

923
00:41:33,269 --> 00:41:29,410
however in Europe my gosh the UK is a

924
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:33,279
hotbed of new research going on some

925
00:41:39,329 --> 00:41:35,170
research in Russia some research in

926
00:41:41,069 --> 00:41:39,339
Hungary some research and Portugal one

927
00:41:44,549 --> 00:41:41,079
of the main funders of this work

928
00:41:48,420 --> 00:41:44,559
worldwide is the foundation be all in

929
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:48,430
fund out of porto portugal and they put

930
00:41:53,220 --> 00:41:50,529
in about half a million euros every two

931
00:41:55,079 --> 00:41:53,230
years which is nothing but hot

932
00:41:57,479 --> 00:41:55,089
competition for that little bit now what

933
00:42:00,509 --> 00:41:57,489
about the u.s. who are who are funding

934
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:00,519
the institutions in the u.s. the three

935
00:42:08,130 --> 00:42:05,440
or the two right now nobody's funding me

936
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:08,140
I wish they were but they're not that

937
00:42:14,579 --> 00:42:11,440
will change shortly I think these two

938
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:14,589
frenetic Sciences is a subscription

939
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:17,170
organization people sign up and you know

940
00:42:22,289 --> 00:42:19,680
so a lot of their funding comes from

941
00:42:24,839 --> 00:42:22,299
subscribers who buy it you know get

942
00:42:26,700 --> 00:42:24,849
their newsletter and buy merchandise and

943
00:42:28,979 --> 00:42:26,710
attend conferences and all that it's a

944
00:42:30,060 --> 00:42:28,989
very interesting organization the

945
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:30,070
University of West Shore

946
00:42:35,490 --> 00:42:33,010
job has believe it or not institutional

947
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:35,500
support from University to conduct

948
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:37,570
research in parapsychology which is

949
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:38,110
terrific

950
00:42:44,870 --> 00:42:42,130
Wow yep so is a is parapsychology a

951
00:42:47,460 --> 00:42:44,880
something you can actually now this is a

952
00:42:52,860 --> 00:42:47,470
layman's question is it something you

953
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:52,870
can get a degree in at the University of

954
00:42:57,390 --> 00:42:55,210
West Georgia you can I think the way

955
00:42:59,870 --> 00:42:57,400
they were to this it's a degree in

956
00:43:02,520 --> 00:42:59,880
psychology with emphasis of

957
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:02,530
parapsychology how you can get a degree

958
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:04,090
in one of the big centers in Europe

959
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:06,730
there was um I don't know if you know

960
00:43:13,710 --> 00:43:09,310
the name of Arthur Tressler he was a

961
00:43:16,260 --> 00:43:13,720
Hungarian writer and when he died he

962
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:16,270
bequeathed a large sum of money to the

963
00:43:20,070 --> 00:43:18,160
University of Edinburgh in Scotland to

964
00:43:23,010 --> 00:43:20,080
the psychology department there which

965
00:43:25,020 --> 00:43:23,020
they were desperately ashamed of took

966
00:43:27,510 --> 00:43:25,030
upon parapsychology so they had a

967
00:43:31,020 --> 00:43:27,520
worldwide search for the first occupier

968
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:31,030
of that chair the professorship in an

969
00:43:35,580 --> 00:43:33,370
American one actually a long time good

970
00:43:38,220 --> 00:43:35,590
friend of mine he died suddenly too for

971
00:43:40,590 --> 00:43:38,230
many years ago Bob Morris was his name

972
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:40,600
and he became the director of that of

973
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:43,450
the curler unit in the psychology

974
00:43:47,940 --> 00:43:45,730
department and by the time he passed

975
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:47,950
away he had become it was such a

976
00:43:53,130 --> 00:43:50,560
rigorous good program that the

977
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:53,140
psychology department at Edinboro was

978
00:43:58,590 --> 00:43:55,450
dragging on their website that their the

979
00:44:01,410 --> 00:43:58,600
center of Europe for quality ESP

980
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:01,420
research pain he was able to change that

981
00:44:08,130 --> 00:44:06,250
and so he had many PhDs that got PhDs in

982
00:44:10,980 --> 00:44:08,140
this discipline have fanned out across

983
00:44:13,470 --> 00:44:10,990
the whole UK and working at various

984
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:13,480
universities universe University of

985
00:44:18,210 --> 00:44:16,090
Northampton is one hartfordshire and

986
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:18,220
other places around that are doing

987
00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:20,890
pretty interesting work their job you

988
00:44:28,050 --> 00:44:23,920
hear a lot of times you'll have seen

989
00:44:32,210 --> 00:44:28,060
either documentaries or like a news

990
00:44:36,420 --> 00:44:32,220
flash where police have exhausted

991
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:36,430
everything that they could possibly do

992
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:38,530
to find out say where a body is or

993
00:44:42,570 --> 00:44:40,720
something like that and then their last

994
00:44:43,890 --> 00:44:42,580
resort is to go to a psychic and the

995
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:43,900
psychic actually fine

996
00:44:48,540 --> 00:44:46,210
this has happened a number of times but

997
00:44:50,340 --> 00:44:48,550
the psychic actually finds the body and

998
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:50,350
describes its you know by a mighty river

999
00:44:55,740 --> 00:44:52,960
bank and there's a car and all this is

1000
00:44:59,390 --> 00:44:55,750
that remote viewing is that what that is

1001
00:45:02,370 --> 00:44:59,400
yes well it's it's gathering information

1002
00:45:06,420 --> 00:45:02,380
informational size and more term size as

1003
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:06,430
a general term for ESP the Greek letter

1004
00:45:16,290 --> 00:45:12,090
Sai is spelled psi yes and associate

1005
00:45:17,910 --> 00:45:16,300
sociologists from Michigan dr. Marcella

1006
00:45:19,740 --> 00:45:17,920
truths he wrote a book called the blue

1007
00:45:22,590 --> 00:45:19,750
shield I think it's called and they

1008
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:22,600
don't call me to that all about the

1009
00:45:27,810 --> 00:45:25,090
police departments using psychics either

1010
00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:27,820
they're murderers and Hellcat it's or

1011
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:30,310
not actually we have a number of cases

1012
00:45:36,810 --> 00:45:35,050
in our in our collection of law

1013
00:45:40,710 --> 00:45:36,820
enforcement along those lines

1014
00:45:43,710 --> 00:45:40,720
one of which there was a murder a young

1015
00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:43,720
woman was murdered in Washington DC and

1016
00:45:49,530 --> 00:45:47,110
everybody was looking for her and the

1017
00:45:52,380 --> 00:45:49,540
woman's parents called up Joe mcmoneagle

1018
00:45:54,420 --> 00:45:52,390
in Virginia and said can you help us

1019
00:45:57,330 --> 00:45:54,430
find our daughter she's missing and

1020
00:45:59,510 --> 00:45:57,340
nobody can find her and he said if you

1021
00:46:03,060 --> 00:45:59,520
can get the police department from the

1022
00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:03,070
DC to call me I'll work the really well

1023
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:06,910
he he this is metaphorically doesn't

1024
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:08,410
work this way you stuck a pin on the map

1025
00:46:14,340 --> 00:46:12,130
in Rock Creek Park 75 teeth when were

1026
00:46:16,980 --> 00:46:14,350
they on the body Oh God

1027
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:16,990
that that is that is totally amazing and

1028
00:46:23,730 --> 00:46:21,130
you know I doing the show in another

1029
00:46:25,710 --> 00:46:23,740
show I do I just think there's just so

1030
00:46:29,820 --> 00:46:25,720
many things that can't really be

1031
00:46:33,270 --> 00:46:29,830
explained and that definitely definitely

1032
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:33,280
is one of them right there would you say

1033
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:38,410
that this is kind of a weird subject to

1034
00:46:43,170 --> 00:46:40,810
ask you could you think that

1035
00:46:46,530 --> 00:46:43,180
remote viewing could be done off planet

1036
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:46,540
in other words like uh say on the moon

1037
00:46:51,930 --> 00:46:48,910
or another planet can someone act can it

1038
00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:51,940
travel distances or is it just located

1039
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:55,510
here on the globe that's definitely not

1040
00:47:04,559 --> 00:46:57,650
an outrageously stupid question

1041
00:47:06,999 --> 00:47:04,569
oh you're good to know okay of course

1042
00:47:10,390 --> 00:47:07,009
yes in fact we've done some work with

1043
00:47:12,430 --> 00:47:10,400
that Ingo Swann did a quote remote

1044
00:47:15,460 --> 00:47:12,440
viewing fly by the plan of Jupiter

1045
00:47:18,190 --> 00:47:15,470
before any of NASA's spaceships god I

1046
00:47:20,259 --> 00:47:18,200
think I heard about this okay okay yes

1047
00:47:22,359 --> 00:47:20,269
and he he described that Jupiter had

1048
00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:22,369
rings it was not thought of and it had a

1049
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:24,049
magnetic field which should have not

1050
00:47:29,650 --> 00:47:26,210
never known turned out to be correct

1051
00:47:32,650 --> 00:47:29,660
Wow isn't that amazing night I did an

1052
00:47:35,049 --> 00:47:32,660
experiment I which my management because

1053
00:47:37,210 --> 00:47:35,059
Bulova watch company was offering a big

1054
00:47:40,150 --> 00:47:37,220
prize for the most clever experiment on

1055
00:47:42,370 --> 00:47:40,160
the nature of time so I said hey I would

1056
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:42,380
like to do an experiment will you let me

1057
00:47:47,349 --> 00:47:45,440
apply for that grant and my management

1058
00:47:48,999 --> 00:47:47,359
said are you what the grant or do you

1059
00:47:50,829 --> 00:47:49,009
want to actually do the study and I said

1060
00:47:53,289 --> 00:47:50,839
I'd rather do the study she said okay

1061
00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:53,299
I'll fund it so what this was the

1062
00:47:59,109 --> 00:47:55,730
Jupiter which at the time was 40 light

1063
00:48:00,759 --> 00:47:59,119
minutes away has an inner moon called IO

1064
00:48:03,279 --> 00:48:00,769
and it goes around Jupiter

1065
00:48:06,130 --> 00:48:03,289
once every I forget what the time period

1066
00:48:07,749 --> 00:48:06,140
is very short and it does it suffers an

1067
00:48:11,229 --> 00:48:07,759
eclipse every time it gets behind

1068
00:48:13,690 --> 00:48:11,239
Jupiter every town in every orbit and so

1069
00:48:17,259 --> 00:48:13,700
it turns out that we know one can

1070
00:48:19,089 --> 00:48:17,269
compute to precision the eclipse time

1071
00:48:20,829 --> 00:48:19,099
and we call the eclipse time when the

1072
00:48:22,420 --> 00:48:20,839
moon is half lit in other words the

1073
00:48:25,599 --> 00:48:22,430
shadow of Jupiter is only covering half

1074
00:48:29,349 --> 00:48:25,609
the moon so what we wanted to know was

1075
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:29,359
can somebody describe when that when

1076
00:48:33,849 --> 00:48:31,130
that Eclipse time is occurring on the

1077
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:33,859
planet on that moon and the question we

1078
00:48:38,979 --> 00:48:36,049
want to ask do they do it in earth base

1079
00:48:40,930 --> 00:48:38,989
time which is 40 minutes later or in

1080
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:40,940
Jupiter's time is that they were sitting

1081
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:43,249
on your bed watching so we did this very

1082
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:44,930
careful experiment and I'll leave all

1083
00:48:48,789 --> 00:48:47,210
the technical details out but involved

1084
00:48:50,380 --> 00:48:48,799
doing remote viewing at 3:00 in the

1085
00:48:54,910 --> 00:48:50,390
morning over hot fudge sundaes and

1086
00:48:57,759 --> 00:48:54,920
pennies for the WWB counter great 8050

1087
00:49:00,849 --> 00:48:57,769
so and then we had a sugar college make

1088
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:00,859
the measurements for us as to when that

1089
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:04,130
halftime came and over many trials our

1090
00:49:09,370 --> 00:49:06,170
viewer managed to get the correct answer

1091
00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:09,380
to plus or minus 10 songs god 10-second

1092
00:49:13,590 --> 00:49:10,880
now the question is

1093
00:49:16,540 --> 00:49:13,600
now here's the question did he do it in

1094
00:49:19,060 --> 00:49:16,550
earth-based time or Jupiter based I'm

1095
00:49:20,770 --> 00:49:19,070
gonna and I'm going to ask you I mean

1096
00:49:23,950 --> 00:49:20,780
I'm going to answer they did it in

1097
00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:23,960
Jupiter time bingo you got it right

1098
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:25,520
lucky lucky guess

1099
00:49:31,150 --> 00:49:28,010
I was a remote viewing it up now you

1100
00:49:34,270 --> 00:49:31,160
just said that you were having hot fudge

1101
00:49:36,460 --> 00:49:34,280
sundaes possibly so does that mean that

1102
00:49:38,290 --> 00:49:36,470
someone doesn't have to be like in a

1103
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:38,300
sterile environment where there's no

1104
00:49:44,650 --> 00:49:42,650
noise and that's so much BS I mean we

1105
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:44,660
did you know I said we tested Cogan's

1106
00:49:50,380 --> 00:49:48,170
idea in a submersible one of the persons

1107
00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:50,390
with me as we're being towed out in this

1108
00:49:55,750 --> 00:49:52,250
submersible is the off of Catalina

1109
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:55,760
Island was Green and seasick and I kept

1110
00:49:59,980 --> 00:49:58,130
saying well are you feeling okay sure

1111
00:50:02,860 --> 00:49:59,990
you ask me one more time I'm gonna barf

1112
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:02,870
all over you shut up so here's the

1113
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:05,570
seasick woman doing marvelous remote

1114
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:07,970
viewing oh there's another story you'll

1115
00:50:16,300 --> 00:50:12,710
appreciate one of the army units at a

1116
00:50:18,550 --> 00:50:16,310
droid army Arsenal in up in Maryland was

1117
00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:18,560
doing remote viewing and I was asked to

1118
00:50:22,750 --> 00:50:20,480
go back there and act as a judge on

1119
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:22,760
their material so I'm sitting in this

1120
00:50:27,370 --> 00:50:25,250
trailer looking at material back there

1121
00:50:29,260 --> 00:50:27,380
and all of a sudden I hear the loudest

1122
00:50:32,020 --> 00:50:29,270
damn noise I've ever heard in my life I

1123
00:50:35,050 --> 00:50:32,030
live fifteen inches off my chair come

1124
00:50:37,390 --> 00:50:35,060
whoa holy cow what was that turned out

1125
00:50:40,090 --> 00:50:37,400
this trailer was like a hundred yards

1126
00:50:43,540 --> 00:50:40,100
from a 15 inch howitzer range they were

1127
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:43,550
shooting off these type of gianna it's

1128
00:50:48,190 --> 00:50:45,050
still able to do remote viewing and

1129
00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:48,200
that's certain Wow well now how does it

1130
00:50:55,090 --> 00:50:52,250
actually I don't know if the word work

1131
00:50:58,030 --> 00:50:55,100
is the right word to use but does do

1132
00:51:01,840 --> 00:50:58,040
things just pop in someone's head now

1133
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:01,850
how does that how does it happen well I

1134
00:51:06,130 --> 00:51:03,530
got a dress that in two ways one is

1135
00:51:07,420 --> 00:51:06,140
experiencial in other words talking with

1136
00:51:09,550 --> 00:51:07,430
people you know I've been working with

1137
00:51:11,650 --> 00:51:09,560
Joe my Chronicle for 30 years and Angela

1138
00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:11,660
for 30 years in eleven thirty years so I

1139
00:51:16,540 --> 00:51:13,910
know them very well with close friends

1140
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:16,550
and so okay so what's it like when you

1141
00:51:24,150 --> 00:51:22,130
do this and the answer rarely is like a

1142
00:51:27,750 --> 00:51:24,160
multimedia extravaganza going

1143
00:51:30,420 --> 00:51:27,760
between your ears sometimes it's like

1144
00:51:32,190 --> 00:51:30,430
that most the time I think it's almost

1145
00:51:36,030 --> 00:51:32,200
as if you're making it up

1146
00:51:37,590 --> 00:51:36,040
really and you just have to go ahead you

1147
00:51:40,830 --> 00:51:37,600
just have to go with it what Joe was

1148
00:51:43,710 --> 00:51:40,840
able to do and then go also was able to

1149
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:43,720
at least statistically say well I made

1150
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:45,490
this up but this is we made it to the

1151
00:51:50,490 --> 00:51:47,770
target and be able to make two columns

1152
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:50,500
of numbers and chortled ifferent that

1153
00:51:57,180 --> 00:51:54,130
way I find that amazes but that said we

1154
00:51:58,740 --> 00:51:57,190
have some now ideas neurologically which

1155
00:52:00,930 --> 00:51:58,750
we're going to be testing shortly in the

1156
00:52:02,190 --> 00:52:00,940
brain of how this might work and what is

1157
00:52:04,260 --> 00:52:02,200
involved do you know the term

1158
00:52:05,810 --> 00:52:04,270
synesthesia have you ever heard you say

1159
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:05,820
that one more time

1160
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:10,720
synesthesia with that okay what it is

1161
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:12,370
it's been around for a long time known

1162
00:52:17,430 --> 00:52:14,290
for a long time it's people who have

1163
00:52:19,830 --> 00:52:17,440
sort of crosswire wiring oh yeah brains

1164
00:52:21,420 --> 00:52:19,840
yep in other words they see numbers and

1165
00:52:25,020 --> 00:52:21,430
yes I know what you're talking about yes

1166
00:52:25,740 --> 00:52:25,030
they smell they spell color yep yep

1167
00:52:28,650 --> 00:52:25,750
exactly

1168
00:52:32,790 --> 00:52:28,660
we think that synesthesia plays a role

1169
00:52:35,610 --> 00:52:32,800
in being a good subject and that's a

1170
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:35,620
testable idea it will find out we wrote

1171
00:52:40,290 --> 00:52:37,930
this model published in Sage publication

1172
00:52:42,330 --> 00:52:40,300
and if the model of how is how

1173
00:52:43,950 --> 00:52:42,340
precognition works is completely wrong

1174
00:52:46,950 --> 00:52:43,960
there's one aspect of which is really

1175
00:52:48,270 --> 00:52:46,960
good let's suppose your your knees toast

1176
00:52:51,990 --> 00:52:48,280
where are you located I'm in the state

1177
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:52,000
of Maine in the state of Maine okay I'm

1178
00:52:58,200 --> 00:52:53,890
in the state of confusion to Coachella

1179
00:53:00,080 --> 00:52:58,210
for ya so okay tomorrow morning when you

1180
00:53:01,890 --> 00:53:00,090
get up you're going to pick a random

1181
00:53:04,020 --> 00:53:01,900
photograph out of the National

1182
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:04,030
Geographic magazine all right that's

1183
00:53:09,090 --> 00:53:07,210
tomorrow I have a subject sitting here

1184
00:53:10,470 --> 00:53:09,100
who's going to tell you what that is

1185
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:10,480
going to tell me what that picture

1186
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:12,010
you're going to choose randomly tomorrow

1187
00:53:17,190 --> 00:53:14,890
will be so there's the problem how does

1188
00:53:20,460 --> 00:53:17,200
that information get from tomorrow there

1189
00:53:22,860 --> 00:53:20,470
then to here now that's a physics

1190
00:53:25,710 --> 00:53:22,870
question only you don't have doesn't it

1191
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:25,720
depend upon any aspect of me over the

1192
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:28,090
remote viewer is its how the world can

1193
00:53:32,070 --> 00:53:30,130
that information get from tomorrow there

1194
00:53:34,290 --> 00:53:32,080
then to here now that's a physics

1195
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:34,300
question we call that the physics domain

1196
00:53:38,810 --> 00:53:35,850
and we and we

1197
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:38,820
some hand-waving arguments for how that

1198
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:41,280
might work then once it's onboard the

1199
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:43,050
brain we call that the neuroscience

1200
00:53:46,430 --> 00:53:44,970
domain in other words what goes on in

1201
00:53:49,370 --> 00:53:46,440
the brain that allows people to

1202
00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:49,380
accurately describe and to have this

1203
00:53:53,810 --> 00:53:52,020
experience and there there are large

1204
00:53:55,790 --> 00:53:53,820
number of testable things in our model

1205
00:53:57,950 --> 00:53:55,800
we call that the neuroscience for me

1206
00:54:00,110 --> 00:53:57,960
what's what's I think a step forward if

1207
00:54:02,660 --> 00:54:00,120
the models wrong at least dividing it up

1208
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:02,670
into two chunks neuroscientist don't

1209
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:04,050
have to worry about how the information

1210
00:54:07,930 --> 00:54:05,760
got there they only have to worry about

1211
00:54:09,650 --> 00:54:07,940
what happened when it got there and the

1212
00:54:11,330 --> 00:54:09,660
physicists don't have to worry about

1213
00:54:12,890 --> 00:54:11,340
what happens when it gets on board the

1214
00:54:14,510 --> 00:54:12,900
brain they only have to worry about how

1215
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:14,520
it got there in the first now which is

1216
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:16,650
would you say that we still know very

1217
00:54:23,090 --> 00:54:21,330
little about the brain no we know a hell

1218
00:54:26,240 --> 00:54:23,100
of a lot about the French do we know a

1219
00:54:28,070 --> 00:54:26,250
lot do we know how the web chalmers

1220
00:54:30,740 --> 00:54:28,080
another called the heart problem

1221
00:54:33,140 --> 00:54:30,750
no there's an awful lot of stuff I can't

1222
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:33,150
tell you exactly where the brain love

1223
00:54:37,070 --> 00:54:34,800
occurs there's probably no separate

1224
00:54:39,290 --> 00:54:37,080
region for but there's an awful lot of

1225
00:54:40,940 --> 00:54:39,300
stuff that is known for cognitive

1226
00:54:43,610 --> 00:54:40,950
neuroscience these days about the brain

1227
00:54:46,310 --> 00:54:43,620
do we know everything no not even close

1228
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:46,320
but we know it yeah but uh you know I

1229
00:54:51,460 --> 00:54:48,090
hear people debating what consciousness

1230
00:54:54,140 --> 00:54:51,470
is and what the mind is and all that

1231
00:54:58,400 --> 00:54:54,150
compared to the brain if it's separate

1232
00:55:02,990 --> 00:54:58,410
or or parallel or all that does any of

1233
00:55:07,070 --> 00:55:03,000
that play into what your research was

1234
00:55:12,710 --> 00:55:07,080
yes there's a huge debate in our in our

1235
00:55:16,190 --> 00:55:12,720
research community it falls into the in

1236
00:55:18,860 --> 00:55:16,200
two words of dualism where you think the

1237
00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:18,870
brain is the mind whatever that is

1238
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:21,510
consciousness it is not equal to the

1239
00:55:27,140 --> 00:55:24,570
brain and the other side of that is that

1240
00:55:29,810 --> 00:55:27,150
the what we define is consciousness all

1241
00:55:32,540 --> 00:55:29,820
that rich think so subjective thing that

1242
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:32,550
goes on on the brain the richness of the

1243
00:55:37,700 --> 00:55:35,250
taste of hot fudge sundaes the richness

1244
00:55:39,350 --> 00:55:37,710
of the color red what it feels like to

1245
00:55:41,930 --> 00:55:39,360
be above all that good stuff that goes

1246
00:55:44,900 --> 00:55:41,940
up we all love as humans being

1247
00:55:48,410 --> 00:55:44,910
materialist which I am one say that that

1248
00:55:51,349 --> 00:55:48,420
is an emergent property of the brain

1249
00:55:54,230 --> 00:55:51,359
now the other side of that argues a few

1250
00:55:56,240 --> 00:55:54,240
is strongly against that my colleagues

1251
00:55:59,329 --> 00:55:56,250
that have been working on this problem

1252
00:56:01,730 --> 00:55:59,339
for a long time are happy to go down

1253
00:56:04,099 --> 00:56:01,740
this article physicalist idea how this

1254
00:56:06,470 --> 00:56:04,109
might work until it begins to fail then

1255
00:56:08,900 --> 00:56:06,480
I'm all doors are open as far as I'm

1256
00:56:11,180 --> 00:56:08,910
concerned I'm data-driven and all the

1257
00:56:13,009 --> 00:56:11,190
data that we have so far at least my

1258
00:56:15,559 --> 00:56:13,019
interpretation of it most of my thoughts

1259
00:56:18,140 --> 00:56:15,569
some of my colleagues agree is that you

1260
00:56:19,220 --> 00:56:18,150
don't need to hypothesize anything at

1261
00:56:20,509 --> 00:56:19,230
all about the nature of consciousness

1262
00:56:23,420 --> 00:56:20,519
here's the interesting thing

1263
00:56:24,980 --> 00:56:23,430
how does 89 thousand pages from the CIA

1264
00:56:28,430 --> 00:56:24,990
release from our project

1265
00:56:31,759 --> 00:56:28,440
the only time consciousness has even

1266
00:56:33,829 --> 00:56:31,769
mentioned as a word is in references to

1267
00:56:36,799 --> 00:56:33,839
some of the somebody else's book really

1268
00:56:43,569 --> 00:56:36,809
ah yeah that's something

1269
00:56:48,289 --> 00:56:43,579
now what about how let's see how

1270
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:48,299
reliable would you say ESP and remote

1271
00:56:58,249 --> 00:56:52,410
viewing is let me here's a highly

1272
00:56:59,870 --> 00:56:58,259
technical term it's okay and the

1273
00:57:03,130 --> 00:56:59,880
California it's even worse than the

1274
00:57:06,289 --> 00:57:03,140
California telephone says had that said

1275
00:57:08,210 --> 00:57:06,299
however if you use it properly it can be

1276
00:57:10,249 --> 00:57:08,220
extremely helpful let me give you a

1277
00:57:12,079 --> 00:57:10,259
couple of examples one of the things

1278
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:12,089
that when I became director of the

1279
00:57:16,190 --> 00:57:14,490
program I had to try to re-educate our

1280
00:57:18,289 --> 00:57:16,200
government clients in the following

1281
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:18,299
sense people thought we had miracles oh

1282
00:57:23,289 --> 00:57:19,890
my god we can levitate a month to the

1283
00:57:25,549 --> 00:57:23,299
moon and we can reach into a creature

1284
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:25,559
Brezhnev's office and describe what's

1285
00:57:29,690 --> 00:57:27,210
inside and you know it's going to be

1286
00:57:32,539 --> 00:57:29,700
God's gift to intelligence Kelly no

1287
00:57:35,089 --> 00:57:32,549
didn't work out that way but if you

1288
00:57:37,009 --> 00:57:35,099
invert the problem and say okay what can

1289
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:37,019
we what can we demonstrate in the

1290
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:39,210
laboratory okay you can do this the

1291
00:57:43,999 --> 00:57:41,250
other thing and is there an application

1292
00:57:47,210 --> 00:57:44,009
for that and the answer is very clearly

1293
00:57:49,339 --> 00:57:47,220
yes let me give you an example suppose

1294
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:49,349
you have a lost nuclear weapon or a

1295
00:57:54,589 --> 00:57:52,890
kidnap victim and you and the people who

1296
00:57:56,809 --> 00:57:54,599
are lots of people looking for if they

1297
00:57:59,930 --> 00:57:56,819
have no idea where it is they have some

1298
00:58:02,299 --> 00:57:59,940
idea but you know in large areas what we

1299
00:58:04,249 --> 00:58:02,309
can do we can't often pin

1300
00:58:07,519 --> 00:58:04,259
point where that where that lost thing

1301
00:58:09,769 --> 00:58:07,529
actually is but we can reduce the time

1302
00:58:11,870 --> 00:58:09,779
it takes you to solve that problem to a

1303
00:58:15,799 --> 00:58:11,880
significant degree which might in fact

1304
00:58:18,709 --> 00:58:15,809
have in fact save lives and reduce the

1305
00:58:21,079 --> 00:58:18,719
amount of expenditure you need to

1306
00:58:23,630 --> 00:58:21,089
accomplish that and here's the way to go

1307
00:58:25,969 --> 00:58:23,640
about it let's say there's a kidnap

1308
00:58:28,789 --> 00:58:25,979
victim and you strongly suspect they're

1309
00:58:31,279 --> 00:58:28,799
in the UK somewhere or maybe in London

1310
00:58:33,829 --> 00:58:31,289
must make that out and so you divide up

1311
00:58:35,870 --> 00:58:33,839
London in say six or seven different

1312
00:58:38,929 --> 00:58:35,880
areas the authorities going to search in

1313
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:38,939
those areas right and so we have like

1314
00:58:42,679 --> 00:58:40,890
six areas they're going to search for we

1315
00:58:44,660 --> 00:58:42,689
have a seventh one meaning none of the

1316
00:58:46,789 --> 00:58:44,670
above and we have some very clever

1317
00:58:49,519 --> 00:58:46,799
techniques with computers and it's being

1318
00:58:52,219 --> 00:58:49,529
written about in these volumes that will

1319
00:58:54,499 --> 00:58:52,229
allow you to say well if you're going to

1320
00:58:56,809 --> 00:58:54,509
search these areas in a random way why

1321
00:58:59,120 --> 00:58:56,819
not search our and we'll give you a list

1322
00:59:01,130 --> 00:58:59,130
you can search ours in our way and if

1323
00:59:02,900 --> 00:59:01,140
you do that it'll reduce the time it

1324
00:59:05,209 --> 00:59:02,910
takes you to find it by anywhere between

1325
00:59:08,239 --> 00:59:05,219
ten to twenty five percent and that has

1326
00:59:11,929 --> 00:59:08,249
is this something that has consistently

1327
00:59:15,439 --> 00:59:11,939
weren't done yes so I guess that would

1328
00:59:20,689 --> 00:59:15,449
be a good use a good reason to say it

1329
00:59:24,890 --> 00:59:20,699
works you know it works somewhat and Wow

1330
00:59:27,499 --> 00:59:24,900
and I remember listening to a show where

1331
00:59:30,559 --> 00:59:27,509
you talked about you and your colleagues

1332
00:59:32,479 --> 00:59:30,569
did a test when it came to I want to say

1333
00:59:35,029 --> 00:59:32,489
horse races or something like that

1334
00:59:36,289 --> 00:59:35,039
well oh yeah how to make any with it I

1335
00:59:39,169 --> 00:59:36,299
want to talk about that because that's

1336
00:59:44,479 --> 00:59:39,179
that's a I might want to get in on that

1337
00:59:48,739 --> 00:59:44,489
yeah well we didn't lengthy series on

1338
00:59:50,299 --> 00:59:48,749
sports bed you can do it for horse races

1339
00:59:53,390 --> 00:59:50,309
this is called associational

1340
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:53,400
remote-viewing in other words if listen

1341
00:59:56,900 --> 00:59:55,170
just to illustrate the point that I'll

1342
01:00:00,109 --> 00:59:56,910
tear about the real case that supposes a

1343
01:00:01,939 --> 01:00:00,119
two horse horse race okay and I would

1344
01:00:03,859 --> 01:00:01,949
like to sit down the Newmark euro

1345
01:00:05,509 --> 01:00:03,869
psychic and say okay

1346
01:00:07,719 --> 01:00:05,519
tomorrow the race is happening which

1347
01:00:10,130 --> 01:00:07,729
horse horse a horse B is going to win

1348
01:00:13,219 --> 01:00:10,140
that's the straight forward and wrong

1349
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:13,229
way to go about here I can know straight

1350
01:00:18,300 --> 01:00:16,090
White's the wrong way let's step back

1351
01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:18,310
a bit suppose I have a regular plane

1352
01:00:23,190 --> 01:00:21,310
deck of cards right and I pick one at

1353
01:00:25,230 --> 01:00:23,200
random and I stick it underneath my desk

1354
01:00:27,090 --> 01:00:25,240
here and I'll say okay all the way from

1355
01:00:29,580 --> 01:00:27,100
Maine I'm going to make this really easy

1356
01:00:33,090 --> 01:00:29,590
for you just tell me is it a black or

1357
01:00:35,220 --> 01:00:33,100
red card wrong because what happens is

1358
01:00:37,260 --> 01:00:35,230
you close your eyes and wafting before

1359
01:00:38,940 --> 01:00:37,270
your mental landscape does every black

1360
01:00:40,380 --> 01:00:38,950
and red playing card you've ever seen in

1361
01:00:42,420 --> 01:00:40,390
your whole life can you play bridge last

1362
01:00:44,910 --> 01:00:42,430
night so there's a cleaving ace of

1363
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:44,920
spades and a red Jack of Diamonds and

1364
01:00:49,650 --> 01:00:47,410
what have you over there and that stuff

1365
01:00:52,410 --> 01:00:49,660
you've invented nothing at all that's

1366
01:00:53,940 --> 01:00:52,420
coming from the dark that that's called

1367
01:00:56,670 --> 01:00:53,950
a forced choice problem

1368
01:00:59,610 --> 01:00:56,680
so what we learned how to do is to solve

1369
01:01:03,930 --> 01:00:59,620
that problem is somebody unknown to me

1370
01:01:05,850 --> 01:01:03,940
would say okay if red if the red is the

1371
01:01:08,430 --> 01:01:05,860
color of the card will associate that

1372
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:08,440
with a picture of a kangaroo and if it's

1373
01:01:13,740 --> 01:01:10,690
black will associate that with a picture

1374
01:01:15,660 --> 01:01:13,750
of a rocketship and now I ask you

1375
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:15,670
okay learn tomorrow I'm going to show

1376
01:01:18,900 --> 01:01:17,290
you how we're going to space in the hot

1377
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:18,910
hours from now let me show you a

1378
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:20,770
photograph just remove you with that

1379
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:23,290
photograph is now you don't have to

1380
01:01:29,100 --> 01:01:26,530
worry about what what is associated with

1381
01:01:31,530 --> 01:01:29,110
that photograph and so the picture I'm

1382
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:31,540
going to show you later is determined by

1383
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:33,250
the color of the car that's facing up

1384
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:37,810
here now we do that for for the real

1385
01:01:46,970 --> 01:01:43,690
case for we did 30 trials with very

1386
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:46,980
complicated series of stuff we have a

1387
01:01:51,390 --> 01:01:49,330
strategy betting team that was in

1388
01:01:53,820 --> 01:01:51,400
Birmingham Alabama and a bunch of your

1389
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:53,830
remote viewers out here and so what we

1390
01:01:58,770 --> 01:01:56,770
did was and my friend in Alabama will

1391
01:02:00,810 --> 01:01:58,780
say well I've got targeting and target B

1392
01:02:03,710 --> 01:02:00,820
all squared away I had no idea what the

1393
01:02:05,910 --> 01:02:03,720
hell that was he had picked some sports

1394
01:02:08,910 --> 01:02:05,920
game I didn't know where this football

1395
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:08,920
basketball horse-racing whatever where

1396
01:02:12,810 --> 01:02:10,570
there was a binary outcome team a or

1397
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:12,820
team B would win and he just named the

1398
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:15,250
outcome of let's say the Dodgers playing

1399
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:18,850
some other baseball team and the outcome

1400
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:21,490
if team a won he called that if the

1401
01:02:25,740 --> 01:02:24,010
Dodgers won he just defined at a star

1402
01:02:27,690 --> 01:02:25,750
today and if the other team I needed to

1403
01:02:28,970 --> 01:02:27,700
find out a star to be he said I've got

1404
01:02:31,460 --> 01:02:28,980
these two daughters

1405
01:02:33,890 --> 01:02:31,470
cat fair enough so I'd sit down with you

1406
01:02:35,180 --> 01:02:33,900
and that's it okay tomorrow and you're

1407
01:02:37,130 --> 01:02:35,190
going to see a photograph please

1408
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:37,140
describe that photograph you describe it

1409
01:02:41,330 --> 01:02:39,210
because we put your data in the computer

1410
01:02:43,310 --> 01:02:41,340
the computer randomly picks two pictures

1411
01:02:46,490 --> 01:02:43,320
that are different from one another as

1412
01:02:47,870 --> 01:02:46,500
possible and arbitrarily Mable's one of

1413
01:02:50,540 --> 01:02:47,880
those pictures target a and the other

1414
01:02:52,790 --> 01:02:50,550
one who started B and if your

1415
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:52,800
description matches one of those two a

1416
01:02:57,800 --> 01:02:55,770
really significant degree I send a note

1417
01:02:59,180 --> 01:02:57,810
back to my colleague in Alabama saying

1418
01:03:01,300 --> 01:02:59,190
well we think it's going to be target

1419
01:03:05,599 --> 01:03:01,310
anyone and it's a good high-quality

1420
01:03:08,410 --> 01:03:05,609
agreement bet on it okay out of 30

1421
01:03:11,300 --> 01:03:08,420
trials nine of them meant a pre the

1422
01:03:13,730 --> 01:03:11,310
predefined threshold of goodness if you

1423
01:03:17,330 --> 01:03:13,740
will and of those nine bets we make

1424
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:17,340
money on eight of them really Wow

1425
01:03:23,420 --> 01:03:20,010
so now so what are you doing sitting

1426
01:03:26,180 --> 01:03:23,430
retire there right now ah here you go

1427
01:03:29,060 --> 01:03:26,190
boy later that you know why not win the

1428
01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:29,070
lottery well I am I'm very very you

1429
01:03:32,390 --> 01:03:29,760
think I don't

1430
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:32,400
lol though I'm actually talking more but

1431
01:03:39,490 --> 01:03:37,880
the reason the real serious answer to

1432
01:03:44,210 --> 01:03:39,500
that question and it's a good question

1433
01:03:46,250 --> 01:03:44,220
is it's labor intensive psychic people

1434
01:03:48,020 --> 01:03:46,260
are not like switches you can turn them

1435
01:03:51,410 --> 01:03:48,030
on and off they get bored quickly and

1436
01:03:55,099 --> 01:03:51,420
hell if you get bored tying your shoes

1437
01:03:57,170 --> 01:03:55,109
you don't do a good job of it so it was

1438
01:03:59,780 --> 01:03:57,180
labor intensive it took like nine months

1439
01:04:01,580 --> 01:03:59,790
to do this kind of thing it just isn't

1440
01:04:06,020 --> 01:04:01,590
worth the effort - Wow and how many

1441
01:04:09,950 --> 01:04:06,030
people were involved we had through huh

1442
01:04:12,830 --> 01:04:09,960
so that long Wow but very interesting

1443
01:04:15,050 --> 01:04:12,840
just the fact that something could be

1444
01:04:18,020 --> 01:04:15,060
you know actually come out of it was

1445
01:04:20,359 --> 01:04:18,030
really really amazing yeah because

1446
01:04:23,390 --> 01:04:20,369
that's what we're Russell Russell Targ

1447
01:04:26,900 --> 01:04:23,400
the good news is he used the same idea

1448
01:04:29,390 --> 01:04:26,910
and he won $100,000 Betty and silver

1449
01:04:31,010 --> 01:04:29,400
futures by this technique unfortunately

1450
01:04:32,450 --> 01:04:31,020
lost hundred thousand dollars in later

1451
01:04:35,690 --> 01:04:32,460
on but the first part worked out very

1452
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:35,700
well one of my other colleagues how foot

1453
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:39,690
off put his kid through school by doing

1454
01:04:42,530 --> 01:04:42,000
this also this kind of technique you it

1455
01:04:45,710 --> 01:04:42,540
does what

1456
01:04:48,740 --> 01:04:45,720
how about that now I don't understand

1457
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:48,750
this question came from Omar but maybe

1458
01:04:55,510 --> 01:04:50,970
you understand it where do you think

1459
01:04:58,460 --> 01:04:55,520
electric human conductivity comes from

1460
01:05:01,550 --> 01:04:58,470
electric human conductivity I have no

1461
01:05:04,490 --> 01:05:01,560
idea okay I didn't I didn't understand

1462
01:05:06,530 --> 01:05:04,500
that so maybe I'll ask out Omar if you

1463
01:05:10,340 --> 01:05:06,540
could rephrase that in a different type

1464
01:05:14,660 --> 01:05:10,350
of way also someone up there is how do

1465
01:05:23,180 --> 01:05:14,670
or can some would defend from remote

1466
01:05:24,980 --> 01:05:23,190
viewing boy yes and no obviously we had

1467
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:24,990
a whole program called countermeasures

1468
01:05:28,820 --> 01:05:27,090
what can we do if we can remote view

1469
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:28,830
them they can remove us how do we

1470
01:05:33,710 --> 01:05:30,770
protect ourselves all right

1471
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:33,720
the answer is putting up shields and

1472
01:05:38,510 --> 01:05:35,610
doing all that stuff won't work but we

1473
01:05:41,690 --> 01:05:38,520
came up with an idea let's suppose you

1474
01:05:43,580 --> 01:05:41,700
had a candle and you didn't want some

1475
01:05:45,410 --> 01:05:43,590
bad guys to know there you have a candle

1476
01:05:48,460 --> 01:05:45,420
what you could do is put a huge

1477
01:05:51,230 --> 01:05:48,470
searchlight right next to handle uh-huh

1478
01:05:52,820 --> 01:05:51,240
so that if people are looking around for

1479
01:05:54,290 --> 01:05:52,830
a weak source of light you would never

1480
01:05:59,630 --> 01:05:54,300
see the candle you can see this big

1481
01:06:01,520 --> 01:05:59,640
searchlight so we have a way balls

1482
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:01,530
entropy and some other things you have a

1483
01:06:08,090 --> 01:06:04,410
random target the random system which

1484
01:06:10,460 --> 01:06:08,100
would act as a decoy to hide what you're

1485
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:10,470
actually trying to protect but as far as

1486
01:06:16,430 --> 01:06:12,810
the government never I mean that was

1487
01:06:17,990 --> 01:06:16,440
probably mostly like an experiment but

1488
01:06:19,790 --> 01:06:18,000
the government would never have would

1489
01:06:23,390 --> 01:06:19,800
really never worry about that I mean

1490
01:06:26,150 --> 01:06:23,400
were we worried that Russia what was you

1491
01:06:28,700 --> 01:06:26,160
really did okay what yeah one of the

1492
01:06:30,230 --> 01:06:28,710
things that we had an SSRI we had one of

1493
01:06:33,140 --> 01:06:30,240
these rooms which actually is in the

1494
01:06:35,270 --> 01:06:33,150
news late they called asked if a special

1495
01:06:38,270 --> 01:06:35,280
compartment and information facility we

1496
01:06:40,340 --> 01:06:38,280
have top-secret stuff and we'd go down

1497
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:40,350
there from time to time but five

1498
01:06:44,660 --> 01:06:42,480
envelopes marked yeah one two three four

1499
01:06:46,580 --> 01:06:44,670
five with pictures inside them and we

1500
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:46,590
tell the people in this super super

1501
01:06:51,260 --> 01:06:48,450
super super secret place and say look

1502
01:06:52,820 --> 01:06:51,270
when we walk out of here randomly pick

1503
01:06:54,830 --> 01:06:52,830
one of these pictures or one of these

1504
01:06:56,390 --> 01:06:54,840
sealed envelopes and put it in the

1505
01:06:58,489 --> 01:06:56,400
middle of the table

1506
01:07:01,489 --> 01:06:58,499
and will penetrate your walls with

1507
01:07:03,319 --> 01:07:01,499
remote viewing and they say oh you can't

1508
01:07:06,710 --> 01:07:03,329
do that and I said yeah watch us and we

1509
01:07:08,420 --> 01:07:06,720
did know what we didn't tell them walk

1510
01:07:15,259 --> 01:07:08,430
does it scared the hell out kept the

1511
01:07:17,989 --> 01:07:15,269
money coming around and but we didn't

1512
01:07:20,569 --> 01:07:17,999
tell them once we once the remotest

1513
01:07:22,249 --> 01:07:20,579
untied and it say can I have the picture

1514
01:07:24,289 --> 01:07:22,259
and they give me the the envelope and I

1515
01:07:27,019 --> 01:07:24,299
take it upstairs opening the envelope

1516
01:07:30,470 --> 01:07:27,029
and show the person the photograph for s

1517
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:30,480
feedback if they were looking into their

1518
01:07:37,190 --> 01:07:34,410
future at the feedback they never

1519
01:07:39,789 --> 01:07:37,200
penetrated the room though uh-huh but

1520
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:39,799
they were really scared about ah Wow

1521
01:07:46,249 --> 01:07:44,130
amazing and do you think are as far as

1522
01:07:50,029 --> 01:07:46,259
you know you said you have you've gone

1523
01:07:55,460 --> 01:07:50,039
to Russia Moscow like 20 times and did

1524
01:08:00,349 --> 01:07:55,470
they have a say a comparable really good

1525
01:08:02,930 --> 01:08:00,359
remote viewer as well I met one of them

1526
01:08:06,769 --> 01:08:02,940
Joe Nigel mcmoneagle I met one her name

1527
01:08:09,229 --> 01:08:06,779
is um Eleanor klimova she was an Army

1528
01:08:11,809 --> 01:08:09,239
personnel and I actually did an

1529
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:11,819
experiment with her so at first hand

1530
01:08:16,700 --> 01:08:13,650
knowledge he's ever much as good as Joe

1531
01:08:18,769 --> 01:08:16,710
mcmoneagle I can't speak to the other at

1532
01:08:20,930 --> 01:08:18,779
one time the remote viewing group there

1533
01:08:26,149 --> 01:08:20,940
had a hundred and twenty remote viewers

1534
01:08:29,539 --> 01:08:26,159
Wow amazing yeah yeah now it seems to me

1535
01:08:31,999 --> 01:08:29,549
that if I was hired and had a contract

1536
01:08:33,470 --> 01:08:32,009
like this I would really now you

1537
01:08:36,289 --> 01:08:33,480
mentioned earlier that people can get

1538
01:08:38,300 --> 01:08:36,299
bored real easy but I think wow yeah

1539
01:08:41,539 --> 01:08:38,310
that would be such a fun job I mean did

1540
01:08:46,910 --> 01:08:41,549
did was there a turnaround or did people

1541
01:08:49,789 --> 01:08:46,920
just stay with it well much to the

1542
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:49,799
consternation of our minders and we have

1543
01:08:56,349 --> 01:08:53,250
minders one fellow of the lake Jim

1544
01:08:58,070 --> 01:08:56,359
Salyer was a gs-15 very high-ranking

1545
01:09:01,249 --> 01:08:58,080
geneticists from Defense Intelligence

1546
01:09:01,669 --> 01:09:01,259
Agency he was with us on-site for eight

1547
01:09:04,789 --> 01:09:01,679
years

1548
01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:04,799
all right and his job is to make sure we

1549
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:08,400
were doing our job Rob and he get really

1550
01:09:12,110 --> 01:09:09,810
angry because

1551
01:09:13,730 --> 01:09:12,120
you fly somebody a psychic remote you're

1552
01:09:15,950 --> 01:09:13,740
in from the East Coast and the guy would

1553
01:09:18,740 --> 01:09:15,960
walk in the door like Joanna said you

1554
01:09:20,630 --> 01:09:18,750
look like B us you look terrible

1555
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:20,640
take the day off and come back tomorrow

1556
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:23,010
you're resident and Jim would go berserk

1557
01:09:27,890 --> 01:09:26,130
I said look you want to fill in all the

1558
01:09:31,010 --> 01:09:27,900
little boxes in your sheet or would you

1559
01:09:33,050 --> 01:09:31,020
rather have good data these I'd rather

1560
01:09:37,820 --> 01:09:33,060
have you yeah yeah that that totally

1561
01:09:40,300 --> 01:09:37,830
makes sense do you think there that this

1562
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:40,310
will in any type of way

1563
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:43,650
come back as far as our government is

1564
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:45,810
concerned or do you think it's just it's

1565
01:09:51,559 --> 01:09:49,530
gone for good or do you think you know I

1566
01:09:54,079 --> 01:09:51,569
can't see how technology could change

1567
01:09:57,530 --> 01:09:54,089
anything this is all just you know

1568
01:10:01,640 --> 01:09:57,540
personal but let's just let's just have

1569
01:10:04,190 --> 01:10:01,650
a case for instance let's say all of a

1570
01:10:05,900 --> 01:10:04,200
sudden someone is born and all of a

1571
01:10:11,150 --> 01:10:05,910
sudden they realize this person really

1572
01:10:15,530 --> 01:10:11,160
has a gift and do you think they would

1573
01:10:17,330 --> 01:10:15,540
initiate something with that person let

1574
01:10:19,130 --> 01:10:17,340
me rephrase your question a little bit

1575
01:10:21,470 --> 01:10:19,140
and it's related and I will answer that

1576
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:21,480
witness ass and that is why did the

1577
01:10:26,710 --> 01:10:23,010
government get out of this okay yes

1578
01:10:29,150 --> 01:10:26,720
that's what I meant to say and the

1579
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:29,160
especially one of the things we're

1580
01:10:33,730 --> 01:10:30,330
finding that we're going to be

1581
01:10:36,050 --> 01:10:33,740
publishing you know the CIA published a

1582
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:36,060
critique called from the american

1583
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:38,130
institutes of research saying this stuff

1584
01:10:43,460 --> 01:10:39,930
never worked as an intelligence tool

1585
01:10:47,390 --> 01:10:43,470
what was the problem of that in 1980

1586
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:47,400
alone the CIA came back 35 separate

1587
01:10:52,340 --> 01:10:49,770
times tasking the remote viewers on

1588
01:10:54,410 --> 01:10:52,350
different paths and the way i think

1589
01:10:56,570 --> 01:10:54,420
about that is you know I really hate

1590
01:10:58,670 --> 01:10:56,580
chocolate pie I'm going to have to eat

1591
01:11:04,070 --> 01:10:58,680
15 slices just to make sure that I

1592
01:11:07,790 --> 01:11:04,080
actually ate so it was producing stuff

1593
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:07,800
that they were pleased with one thing it

1594
01:11:12,470 --> 01:11:09,570
in the intelligence community they have

1595
01:11:14,630 --> 01:11:12,480
what are called hints ints there's faux

1596
01:11:17,300 --> 01:11:14,640
tint from photography there's SIGINT

1597
01:11:19,450 --> 01:11:17,310
from signals there is comment from

1598
01:11:22,190 --> 01:11:19,460
communications intelligence and so on

1599
01:11:23,669 --> 01:11:22,200
one type of intelligence is like the old

1600
01:11:26,310 --> 01:11:23,679
World War two spies

1601
01:11:28,169 --> 01:11:26,320
humans for humans are gathering

1602
01:11:31,500 --> 01:11:28,179
information you know behind enemy lines

1603
01:11:34,350 --> 01:11:31,510
and that kind of stuff our data the good

1604
01:11:37,620 --> 01:11:34,360
news and bad news is as good as humans

1605
01:11:39,450 --> 01:11:37,630
was and equally as bad hmm it's very

1606
01:11:41,970 --> 01:11:39,460
difficult to interpret what's going on

1607
01:11:44,459 --> 01:11:41,980
there but it was good enough now why did

1608
01:11:48,149 --> 01:11:44,469
the program shut down a number of

1609
01:11:50,370 --> 01:11:48,159
reasons the Cold War was over and most

1610
01:11:52,050 --> 01:11:50,380
of the tasking in the Cold War was

1611
01:11:56,189 --> 01:11:52,060
what's called strategic intelligence

1612
01:11:58,320 --> 01:11:56,199
here is a site in in Ukraine at

1613
01:12:00,090 --> 01:11:58,330
Semipalatinsk and people have been

1614
01:12:02,399 --> 01:12:00,100
worrying about it for ten years what the

1615
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:02,409
blazes is going on at this facility and

1616
01:12:07,260 --> 01:12:05,050
so that is a strategic intelligence

1617
01:12:08,910 --> 01:12:07,270
problem doesn't matter when you book you

1618
01:12:12,959 --> 01:12:08,920
try to figure out what's going on there

1619
01:12:14,550 --> 01:12:12,969
a tactical intelligence problem is where

1620
01:12:17,110 --> 01:12:14,560
Saddam Hussein going to be in the next

1621
01:12:23,630 --> 01:12:20,600
ESP frankly sucks at the second job it's

1622
01:12:26,930 --> 01:12:23,640
much better at the first job and so the

1623
01:12:30,590 --> 01:12:26,940
need for this kind of intelligence for

1624
01:12:32,780 --> 01:12:30,600
for a strategic work with and with

1625
01:12:34,610 --> 01:12:32,790
increased satellite detection and all

1626
01:12:37,430 --> 01:12:34,620
that kind of stuff the need for that

1627
01:12:40,010 --> 01:12:37,440
kind of fell away that's one possible

1628
01:12:45,950 --> 01:12:40,020
possible reasons of a shutdown another

1629
01:12:48,980 --> 01:12:45,960
possible reason is the staffer on the

1630
01:12:51,110 --> 01:12:48,990
Senate Appropriations Committee wanted

1631
01:12:55,340 --> 01:12:51,120
to force this down the throats of CIA

1632
01:12:56,990 --> 01:12:55,350
and nobody at CIA one of the program so

1633
01:13:00,230 --> 01:12:57,000
they did everything they could to shut

1634
01:13:02,570 --> 01:13:00,240
the thing down thirdly and this I think

1635
01:13:04,790 --> 01:13:02,580
is a big one we had a whole series of

1636
01:13:07,730 --> 01:13:04,800
protectors William Cohen was one of them

1637
01:13:10,430 --> 01:13:07,740
who stood between us and the people who

1638
01:13:12,830 --> 01:13:10,440
tried to shut us down and a lot of those

1639
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:12,840
people who were committed to the

1640
01:13:17,930 --> 01:13:14,610
existence of this phenomena and its

1641
01:13:19,730 --> 01:13:17,940
usefulness have somewhat gone away and

1642
01:13:22,460 --> 01:13:19,740
give you an example of that Joe

1643
01:13:25,190 --> 01:13:22,470
mcmoneagle and I spent a decade a whole

1644
01:13:28,940 --> 01:13:25,200
decade below the radar trying to get

1645
01:13:31,310 --> 01:13:28,950
something started and because in Intel's

1646
01:13:32,690 --> 01:13:31,320
for counterterrorism it's a great thing

1647
01:13:34,730 --> 01:13:32,700
it would be wonderful

1648
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:34,740
I hope I'm running both they're using it

1649
01:13:40,070 --> 01:13:37,170
now I don't think they are and my

1650
01:13:42,260 --> 01:13:40,080
argument for that is that we found that

1651
01:13:43,700 --> 01:13:42,270
the working stiffs the people who are

1652
01:13:46,460 --> 01:13:43,710
going to be doing the data and the

1653
01:13:50,030 --> 01:13:46,470
analysis loved what we had to do because

1654
01:13:51,440 --> 01:13:50,040
it was cheating you know but every time

1655
01:13:56,390 --> 01:13:51,450
they took they wanted to give a small

1656
01:13:58,070 --> 01:13:56,400
program going they decided that it got

1657
01:14:00,740 --> 01:13:58,080
killed with the management room you know

1658
01:14:02,300 --> 01:14:00,750
upper level officers in the life is of

1659
01:14:06,350 --> 01:14:02,310
no way you know we don't want to get

1660
01:14:10,970 --> 01:14:06,360
caught doing this stuff yeah did I'm to

1661
01:14:13,490 --> 01:14:10,980
have people speculated on how this

1662
01:14:17,660 --> 01:14:13,500
worked in the first place

1663
01:14:20,150 --> 01:14:17,670
like and what and what I see you shaking

1664
01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:20,160
your head yes and what uh what did they

1665
01:14:26,750 --> 01:14:24,930
come up with well there as I said coggan

1666
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:26,760
father was a electromagnetic and we

1667
01:14:31,590 --> 01:14:28,370
tested that

1668
01:14:34,570 --> 01:14:31,600
we have what's actually surprised me

1669
01:14:38,860 --> 01:14:34,580
what surprised me was we have some memos

1670
01:14:40,090 --> 01:14:38,870
from the CIA even in 1973 outlining what

1671
01:14:42,630 --> 01:14:40,100
they thought would be an appropriate

1672
01:14:45,250 --> 01:14:42,640
research program that was

1673
01:14:47,890 --> 01:14:45,260
psychophysiology what is going to honor

1674
01:14:50,470 --> 01:14:47,900
the brain can we just you know without

1675
01:14:52,030 --> 01:14:50,480
you know with high ethics take

1676
01:14:55,030 --> 01:14:52,040
somebody's brain apart if you will my

1677
01:14:57,310 --> 01:14:55,040
imagery to try to find out what is what

1678
01:15:00,430 --> 01:14:57,320
makes a psychic tick to be blunt about

1679
01:15:02,410 --> 01:15:00,440
it they wanted to know what were the

1680
01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:02,420
target properties what makes a good

1681
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:04,130
remote viewing target what and what

1682
01:15:07,330 --> 01:15:05,690
shouldn't you waste your time on for

1683
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:07,340
example if you have satellites that are

1684
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:09,410
looking at the visible spectrum you

1685
01:15:14,440 --> 01:15:11,090
don't want to send that satellite

1686
01:15:17,170 --> 01:15:14,450
looking for infrared it will work so

1687
01:15:19,330 --> 01:15:17,180
they wanted to know what what would lend

1688
01:15:21,430 --> 01:15:19,340
itself to this kind of new collection

1689
01:15:23,830 --> 01:15:21,440
asset this new collection technique and

1690
01:15:27,670 --> 01:15:23,840
we have a lot we learned a lot about

1691
01:15:29,140 --> 01:15:27,680
that actually and I'll say it crudely if

1692
01:15:31,060 --> 01:15:29,150
you're searching for something you're

1693
01:15:33,940 --> 01:15:31,070
more likely to find it that something is

1694
01:15:36,100 --> 01:15:33,950
radioactive than if it's cocaine mm-hmm

1695
01:15:38,230 --> 01:15:36,110
and there's a good reason for that

1696
01:15:40,030 --> 01:15:38,240
involving changes of entropy and a whole

1697
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:40,040
lot of stuff which I'm not to vomiting

1698
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:43,730
well your listeners asleep but we did

1699
01:15:48,220 --> 01:15:45,890
find some qualities that would tell us

1700
01:15:49,930 --> 01:15:48,230
tasks your remote viewers on this kind

1701
01:15:52,570 --> 01:15:49,940
of a problem rather than this kind of

1702
01:15:56,650 --> 01:15:52,580
bubble hmm Wow

1703
01:15:58,270 --> 01:15:56,660
now there's up you know some people I

1704
01:16:00,430 --> 01:15:58,280
don't know if this is true or not but

1705
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:00,440
they say everything is connected in one

1706
01:16:06,910 --> 01:16:03,650
way or another you know energy and all

1707
01:16:11,020 --> 01:16:06,920
that and then you get all the way down

1708
01:16:19,090 --> 01:16:11,030
to how they can explain the quantum

1709
01:16:20,940 --> 01:16:19,100
entanglement type of thing um so you

1710
01:16:25,690 --> 01:16:20,950
have another hour Hank and I are

1711
01:16:27,550 --> 01:16:25,700
screaming jumping up and down so I'm not

1712
01:16:30,370 --> 01:16:27,560
alright so you don't think it has

1713
01:16:33,970 --> 01:16:30,380
anything to do with any type of quantum

1714
01:16:36,580 --> 01:16:33,980
or unseen pranic absolutely not let me

1715
01:16:39,490 --> 01:16:36,590
know Peggy why first off I have the bona

1716
01:16:41,440 --> 01:16:39,500
things there is no one with one

1717
01:16:43,330 --> 01:16:41,450
exception of the theorists nope

1718
01:16:45,340 --> 01:16:43,340
lawyer by the name of Brian Josephson a

1719
01:16:46,810 --> 01:16:45,350
good friend and a very smart smart

1720
01:16:49,660 --> 01:16:46,820
fellow he disagrees with me

1721
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:49,670
but i he's not an experimentalist I

1722
01:16:55,180 --> 01:16:52,690
spent 12 years doing nuclear physics

1723
01:16:57,520 --> 01:16:55,190
experiments where I have to live in

1724
01:17:00,370 --> 01:16:57,530
midst of quantum theory and how I'll

1725
01:17:02,530 --> 01:17:00,380
interpret all this and quantum 101 in

1726
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:02,540
college and graduate school I've had

1727
01:17:07,510 --> 01:17:04,130
lots and lots and lots of money visit

1728
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:07,520
alright there are those that would hold

1729
01:17:11,470 --> 01:17:09,770
that the brain is the quant is the

1730
01:17:13,510 --> 01:17:11,480
large-scale quantum mechanical thing

1731
01:17:15,220 --> 01:17:13,520
first of all fun level it is because

1732
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:15,230
quantum mechanics describes how atoms

1733
01:17:19,480 --> 01:17:17,090
interact with each other right in a

1734
01:17:20,980 --> 01:17:19,490
brain at least some some people I know

1735
01:17:22,510 --> 01:17:20,990
their atoms are interacting in their

1736
01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:22,520
brain and they call it thought about

1737
01:17:30,310 --> 01:17:25,850
that but there have been calculations

1738
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:30,320
and experiments that show that the brain

1739
01:17:34,900 --> 01:17:32,690
does not act like a giant like a giant

1740
01:17:37,450 --> 01:17:34,910
electron and have a wave function that

1741
01:17:39,580 --> 01:17:37,460
can reach across time in quantum

1742
01:17:43,110 --> 01:17:39,590
interconnectedness and and oneness

1743
01:17:45,340 --> 01:17:43,120
across the planet sorry the amount of

1744
01:17:47,890 --> 01:17:45,350
probability waves in quantum theory

1745
01:17:50,020 --> 01:17:47,900
coming from the brain doesn't get even

1746
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:50,030
through the skull but across and let

1747
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:52,610
across the planet it just doesn't end

1748
01:17:58,030 --> 01:17:55,010
that's not just philosophy on my part

1749
01:18:00,760 --> 01:17:58,040
that's hard measurements of ATP 80 years

1750
01:18:03,070 --> 01:18:00,770
of looking exactly what constitutes a

1751
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:03,080
large-scale quantum device as opposed to

1752
01:18:07,420 --> 01:18:05,410
a small and then give you an example

1753
01:18:10,480 --> 01:18:07,430
physicists like to compete with each

1754
01:18:13,630 --> 01:18:10,490
other who can make the largest chunk act

1755
01:18:15,540 --> 01:18:13,640
like a single quantum thing and the

1756
01:18:19,570 --> 01:18:15,550
record is at least a couple years ago

1757
01:18:23,740 --> 01:18:19,580
was 500,000 rubidium atoms rubidium as

1758
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:23,750
an element 500,000 of them is too small

1759
01:18:27,850 --> 01:18:25,850
respect to see without an unaided eye

1760
01:18:30,730 --> 01:18:27,860
the electron microscope little tiny

1761
01:18:32,650 --> 01:18:30,740
speck and sure enough for me it acts

1762
01:18:34,410 --> 01:18:32,660
like a quantum a collective quantum

1763
01:18:38,440 --> 01:18:34,420
thing that's the good news

1764
01:18:40,630 --> 01:18:38,450
but it does so at millionths of a degree

1765
01:18:43,660 --> 01:18:40,640
above absolute zero and temperature mean

1766
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:43,670
and as soon as you raise it a little bit

1767
01:18:47,980 --> 01:18:45,890
to maybe a million for the degree above

1768
01:18:49,900 --> 01:18:47,990
absolute zero it quits acting like a

1769
01:18:52,570 --> 01:18:49,910
quantum device now you're going to tell

1770
01:18:53,700 --> 01:18:52,580
me a brain 300 degrees above absolute

1771
01:18:57,510 --> 01:18:53,710
zero

1772
01:19:00,450 --> 01:18:57,520
is going to act like a quantum device

1773
01:19:02,310 --> 01:19:00,460
sorry so what is the argument you

1774
01:19:04,740 --> 01:19:02,320
mentioned your colleague or that you

1775
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:04,750
said was very smart that believes that

1776
01:19:08,729 --> 01:19:06,370
it's possible

1777
01:19:12,270 --> 01:19:08,739
what is his theory on that what does his

1778
01:19:16,530 --> 01:19:12,280
take his name is Brian Johnson

1779
01:19:17,790 --> 01:19:16,540
Nobel or he won the prize for developing

1780
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:17,800
what is now called the Josephson

1781
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:20,650
Junction very nice fellow very he works

1782
01:19:25,590 --> 01:19:23,770
at Cambridge he's invited we argue with

1783
01:19:28,020 --> 01:19:25,600
each other online a lot it cost me a

1784
01:19:29,550 --> 01:19:28,030
coherence junkie so he invited me to

1785
01:19:31,650 --> 01:19:29,560
give a talk at Cambridge and I went

1786
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:31,660
there and I said my title was the

1787
01:19:40,590 --> 01:19:34,570
confessions of a coherence junkie ha ha

1788
01:19:43,250 --> 01:19:40,600
and what they what he thinks is and he

1789
01:19:46,470 --> 01:19:43,260
has an attitude he's a very serious

1790
01:19:47,100 --> 01:19:46,480
transcendental follower Transcendental

1791
01:19:48,900 --> 01:19:47,110
Meditation

1792
01:19:50,610 --> 01:19:48,910
and I'm not on his case about that I

1793
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:50,620
think it's cause I spend a lot of time

1794
01:19:54,510 --> 01:19:53,290
to give you myself and that kind of

1795
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:54,520
experience that people have in

1796
01:19:58,920 --> 01:19:56,650
meditation and he is trying desperately

1797
01:20:02,070 --> 01:19:58,930
to put in some testable ideas

1798
01:20:06,300 --> 01:20:02,080
theoretically to do that the problem is

1799
01:20:09,090 --> 01:20:06,310
that the only day of the people that

1800
01:20:11,750 --> 01:20:09,100
hold the idea that consciousness is not

1801
01:20:13,950 --> 01:20:11,760
located in the brains extending outward

1802
01:20:19,530 --> 01:20:13,960
the only data they have is

1803
01:20:21,479 --> 01:20:19,540
parapsychology now I'm happy if if the

1804
01:20:24,090 --> 01:20:21,489
other side of that argument that is

1805
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:24,100
materialism know that it's neurons of

1806
01:20:29,700 --> 01:20:27,610
the brain when that begins to fail I'll

1807
01:20:33,450 --> 01:20:29,710
start paying attention else here but at

1808
01:20:36,090 --> 01:20:33,460
the moment as you have to bail Wow

1809
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:36,100
it's interesting philosophy is damned

1810
01:20:40,140 --> 01:20:38,050
interesting philosophy I'm not you know

1811
01:20:44,190 --> 01:20:40,150
I don't call them horrible stupid people

1812
01:20:47,370 --> 01:20:44,200
like they sometimes refer to us but but

1813
01:20:50,340 --> 01:20:47,380
you know it's a fact I was giving a talk

1814
01:20:52,380 --> 01:20:50,350
at in India once at the Ramakrishna

1815
01:20:54,570 --> 01:20:52,390
mission Institute of culture you call

1816
01:20:58,680 --> 01:20:54,580
cut a very famous place and I was the

1817
01:21:01,979 --> 01:20:58,690
resident materialist invited and what

1818
01:21:04,380 --> 01:21:01,989
was fascinating about that is that one

1819
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:04,390
of the Ramakrishna mission monks and I

1820
01:21:09,060 --> 01:21:06,850
got on really well together

1821
01:21:11,730 --> 01:21:09,070
and I said look I'd like your philosophy

1822
01:21:12,870 --> 01:21:11,740
of transcendence and survival of bodily

1823
01:21:15,030 --> 01:21:12,880
death that's a much more interesting

1824
01:21:16,860 --> 01:21:15,040
philosophy than mine is which when I

1825
01:21:19,020 --> 01:21:16,870
take my last breath that's the end of it

1826
01:21:21,150 --> 01:21:19,030
I said I hope you're right so why don't

1827
01:21:23,490 --> 01:21:21,160
we try to work together to try to come

1828
01:21:26,250 --> 01:21:23,500
up with some way you have to get beyond

1829
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:26,260
the literature 3,000 years ago

1830
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:28,330
you have to know they didn't know about

1831
01:21:31,530 --> 01:21:30,130
genetics they didn't know about neurons

1832
01:21:32,970 --> 01:21:31,540
they didn't know about they didn't know

1833
01:21:35,700 --> 01:21:32,980
about a whole bunch of stuff which we

1834
01:21:39,090 --> 01:21:35,710
now know about can we find some

1835
01:21:41,340 --> 01:21:39,100
experiment that will support that your

1836
01:21:43,710 --> 01:21:41,350
philosophical outlook and reject mine

1837
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:43,720
and we are still in dialogue about that

1838
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:45,730
if you have come oh yes Dylan dialog

1839
01:21:51,740 --> 01:21:48,610
loaded now what about head jerk the

1840
01:21:55,650 --> 01:21:51,750
group ever tried the sensory deprivation

1841
01:21:56,880 --> 01:21:55,660
tanks is that anything you've ever tried

1842
01:22:01,110 --> 01:21:56,890
you know what I mean where you float in

1843
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:01,120
the Saline yeah sure the ganzfeld

1844
01:22:04,980 --> 01:22:03,370
procedure which is a cheaper way of

1845
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:04,990
doing something like that puts people in

1846
01:22:10,350 --> 01:22:06,810
a mound or tree state of consciousness

1847
01:22:12,870 --> 01:22:10,360
the closest we ever came to that when

1848
01:22:15,060 --> 01:22:12,880
England was working with we had a remote

1849
01:22:18,540 --> 01:22:15,070
viewing room in our laboratory which was

1850
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:18,550
painted like gunmetal gray with very

1851
01:22:22,170 --> 01:22:20,410
small lighting and if everything was

1852
01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:22,180
gray there was no artwork on the walls

1853
01:22:27,330 --> 01:22:24,370
and nothing it was kind of a featureless

1854
01:22:28,830 --> 01:22:27,340
room in which to do the work and we've

1855
01:22:30,660 --> 01:22:28,840
done work on altered states of

1856
01:22:33,450 --> 01:22:30,670
consciousness with regard to hypnosis

1857
01:22:34,980 --> 01:22:33,460
and lucid dreaming neither of those

1858
01:22:37,590 --> 01:22:34,990
enhanced remote viewing

1859
01:22:40,350 --> 01:22:37,600
neither of them Wow how about that now

1860
01:22:42,510 --> 01:22:40,360
where does a you mentioned something

1861
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:42,520
about someone could Remote View

1862
01:22:50,850 --> 01:22:47,530
something like a day in advance so is

1863
01:22:53,460 --> 01:22:50,860
there any type of connection to possible

1864
01:22:56,040 --> 01:22:53,470
time travel of thoughts or something how

1865
01:23:00,960 --> 01:22:56,050
does it how would that how does that

1866
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:00,970
work well until one this two volumes set

1867
01:23:06,330 --> 01:23:02,890
we have a philosopher mainstream

1868
01:23:07,950 --> 01:23:06,340
philosopher from Australia who addressed

1869
01:23:10,020 --> 01:23:07,960
the question because most people think

1870
01:23:12,450 --> 01:23:10,030
precognition violates causality

1871
01:23:16,260 --> 01:23:12,460
causality means I've got this battery

1872
01:23:18,799 --> 01:23:16,270
and it will won't fall into my hand

1873
01:23:22,250 --> 01:23:18,809
unless until I open my fingers right

1874
01:23:23,930 --> 01:23:22,260
so how can it fall before I open like my

1875
01:23:25,819 --> 01:23:23,940
fingers that violates the causal

1876
01:23:28,370 --> 01:23:25,829
relationship between opening my fingers

1877
01:23:30,229 --> 01:23:28,380
of this battery falling and so I thought

1878
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:30,239
for a long period of time one big

1879
01:23:35,569 --> 01:23:32,610
problem we have about precognition is it

1880
01:23:38,899 --> 01:23:35,579
appeared turns out to be incorrect that

1881
01:23:42,319 --> 01:23:38,909
it violates causality and what this guy

1882
01:23:44,479 --> 01:23:42,329
did Richard Richard Cory's his name was

1883
01:23:47,750 --> 01:23:44,489
able to demonstrate philosophically how

1884
01:23:50,060 --> 01:23:47,760
it does not violate causality now that

1885
01:23:52,189 --> 01:23:50,070
gets really interesting because what it

1886
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:52,199
says is you know all those science

1887
01:23:56,390 --> 01:23:53,730
fiction programs which are a lot of fun

1888
01:23:58,720 --> 01:23:56,400
if you can see the future are you

1889
01:24:01,879 --> 01:23:58,730
condemned to experience that future is

1890
01:24:04,459 --> 01:24:01,889
it is it absolutely guaranteed

1891
01:24:06,919 --> 01:24:04,469
you know deterministically so that you

1892
01:24:10,970 --> 01:24:06,929
cannot avoid it in fact Sandra Bullock

1893
01:24:14,089 --> 01:24:10,980
I've acted in a film called premonitions

1894
01:24:15,919 --> 01:24:14,099
and she had this premonition that her

1895
01:24:17,839 --> 01:24:15,929
husband was going to get killed and she

1896
01:24:19,370 --> 01:24:17,849
and she did everything to prevent that

1897
01:24:21,830 --> 01:24:19,380
to happen but at the end of the day

1898
01:24:24,859 --> 01:24:21,840
nature conspired against her and her

1899
01:24:27,549 --> 01:24:24,869
husband until unfortunately Joe make

1900
01:24:30,109 --> 01:24:27,559
monocle and I did a real premonitions

1901
01:24:32,330 --> 01:24:30,119
set on the media this is one of those my

1902
01:24:34,100 --> 01:24:32,340
fishing about the media they didn't tell

1903
01:24:38,450 --> 01:24:34,110
us that they wanted to be an extra on

1904
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:38,460
the DVD of that movie we could show real

1905
01:24:43,549 --> 01:24:39,690
print cognition under laboratory

1906
01:24:47,209 --> 01:24:43,559
conditions but our data shows that you

1907
01:24:50,779 --> 01:24:47,219
can have access to alternative futures

1908
01:24:52,250 --> 01:24:50,789
those that don't come come to the past

1909
01:24:54,470 --> 01:24:52,260
let me explain how that happens it's

1910
01:24:57,049 --> 01:24:54,480
really easy to understand it imagine a

1911
01:25:00,260 --> 01:24:57,059
six-sided die has six phases right 1 2 3

1912
01:25:02,930 --> 01:25:00,270
4 5 6 imagine the following very boring

1913
01:25:05,089 --> 01:25:02,940
cakes that met that where the computer

1914
01:25:07,549 --> 01:25:05,099
died you know it's not in real diet you

1915
01:25:09,350 --> 01:25:07,559
you say ok what we'd like you to do is

1916
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:09,360
to press a number 1 through 6 on the

1917
01:25:13,879 --> 01:25:11,610
keyboard and after you press the number

1918
01:25:16,220 --> 01:25:13,889
the computer will randomly toss this

1919
01:25:18,379 --> 01:25:16,230
random kind of this real fair guy and

1920
01:25:21,109 --> 01:25:18,389
show you a face almost cream so you

1921
01:25:22,970 --> 01:25:21,119
print you pissed press number 3 and 6

1922
01:25:25,189 --> 01:25:22,980
comes up units you press number 4 and a

1923
01:25:28,490 --> 01:25:25,199
4 comes up it's a direct hit but we

1924
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:28,500
fooled you half the time when you

1925
01:25:32,050 --> 01:25:31,170
pressed number 4 we rolled the dice

1926
01:25:33,430 --> 01:25:32,060
twice

1927
01:25:36,220 --> 01:25:33,440
it happened so fast you don't notice

1928
01:25:38,650 --> 01:25:36,230
that delayed that suppose you press

1929
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:38,660
number four and it rolls of ice and it

1930
01:25:43,330 --> 01:25:40,250
comes up some number let's say through

1931
01:25:45,580 --> 01:25:43,340
we then biased to that die for the next

1932
01:25:47,050 --> 01:25:45,590
throw so that number three on a fifty

1933
01:25:49,030 --> 01:25:47,060
percent chance of coming up and the

1934
01:25:51,610 --> 01:25:49,040
other faces have a 10 percent chance and

1935
01:25:54,100 --> 01:25:51,620
then roll that die display for you now

1936
01:25:57,220 --> 01:25:54,110
the interesting question is could you

1937
01:25:59,170 --> 01:25:57,230
well under those cases for the most

1938
01:26:00,310 --> 01:25:59,180
likely future in other words the one

1939
01:26:03,910 --> 01:26:00,320
that was going to come up fifty percent

1940
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:03,920
of the time but didn't what did you

1941
01:26:08,710 --> 01:26:06,170
guess the face that came up or the face

1942
01:26:11,440 --> 01:26:08,720
that should have come up it didn't that

1943
01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:11,450
answered that question directly are you

1944
01:26:16,330 --> 01:26:13,490
condemned to see that the only future

1945
01:26:18,820 --> 01:26:16,340
that happens the answer is no you can

1946
01:26:21,730 --> 01:26:18,830
you track the most probable future

1947
01:26:23,410 --> 01:26:21,740
whether it comes up or not if so if you

1948
01:26:25,150 --> 01:26:23,420
have a second tree we can get by a hit

1949
01:26:27,850 --> 01:26:25,160
by a truck on the way to work stay in

1950
01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:27,860
bed you'll be fine that's good to know

1951
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:32,570
now it is yeah episode has somebody paid

1952
01:26:39,270 --> 01:26:34,850
me to do this heavy duty philosophical

1953
01:26:44,200 --> 01:26:39,280
experiment wow what a drawing right so a

1954
01:26:48,370 --> 01:26:44,210
1985 it closed and computers Oh eyes are

1955
01:26:50,440 --> 01:26:48,380
in 1995 ok so you are in with computers

1956
01:26:52,810 --> 01:26:50,450
I was just going to ask you what what

1957
01:26:59,800 --> 01:26:52,820
and I heard you mentioned a couple of

1958
01:27:01,420 --> 01:26:59,810
programs so what part of your job was

1959
01:27:04,780 --> 01:27:01,430
involved in computers and do you think

1960
01:27:06,820 --> 01:27:04,790
today with the advanced you know

1961
01:27:07,930 --> 01:27:06,830
technology things would be different

1962
01:27:12,250 --> 01:27:07,940
you'd be able to do different

1963
01:27:15,730 --> 01:27:12,260
experiments very much so um in fact now

1964
01:27:18,340 --> 01:27:15,740
I have an entire self-contained credible

1965
01:27:20,500 --> 01:27:18,350
good remote viewing program that I can

1966
01:27:22,870 --> 01:27:20,510
send around the people to do really

1967
01:27:25,990 --> 01:27:22,880
really am and it's all through

1968
01:27:29,920 --> 01:27:26,000
algorithms and things like that or yeah

1969
01:27:32,620 --> 01:27:29,930
yes there's let me describe a little

1970
01:27:36,010 --> 01:27:32,630
geeky here a something called a

1971
01:27:38,980 --> 01:27:36,020
mathematical set if I can thank you tell

1972
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:38,990
me the set of cities that have a million

1973
01:27:45,909 --> 01:27:42,730
population or more you say okay la

1974
01:27:48,850 --> 01:27:45,919
Chicago and so on you could give us

1975
01:27:51,549 --> 01:27:48,860
named bunch of cities the problem is

1976
01:27:53,859 --> 01:27:51,559
what happens if you have a C that is one

1977
01:27:55,149 --> 01:27:53,869
person short of the million it doesn't

1978
01:27:56,949 --> 01:27:55,159
fit that set

1979
01:28:00,279 --> 01:27:56,959
it's called a crisp set the engines are

1980
01:28:03,009 --> 01:28:00,289
really hard but somebody at Berkeley got

1981
01:28:05,229 --> 01:28:03,019
means on the pick in the 70s invented

1982
01:28:07,870 --> 01:28:05,239
something similar called a fuzzy set

1983
01:28:10,029 --> 01:28:07,880
where now you can ask a really difficult

1984
01:28:12,399 --> 01:28:10,039
question give me the list of cities that

1985
01:28:14,020 --> 01:28:12,409
are kind of big you say well what do you

1986
01:28:17,229 --> 01:28:14,030
mean by kind of bigness I don't know you

1987
01:28:20,049 --> 01:28:17,239
can indent that term and fuzzy sets are

1988
01:28:21,459 --> 01:28:20,059
in television and fuzzy sets are used by

1989
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:21,469
Google to show you about what

1990
01:28:28,209 --> 01:28:23,570
advertisements you should see on your

1991
01:28:29,979 --> 01:28:28,219
Google machine and so on okay well a way

1992
01:28:32,919 --> 01:28:29,989
and think about fuzzy sets it's a

1993
01:28:35,739 --> 01:28:32,929
quantitative way of describing the

1994
01:28:38,489 --> 01:28:35,749
ambiguous and I thought what is more

1995
01:28:41,469 --> 01:28:38,499
vigorous that we're both doing so I I

1996
01:28:44,139 --> 01:28:41,479
incorporated fuzzy sets into the remote

1997
01:28:46,689 --> 01:28:44,149
viewing process automatic judging and it

1998
01:28:48,189 --> 01:28:46,699
works like gangbusters it's really good

1999
01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:48,199
wow that's amazing

2000
01:28:51,850 --> 01:28:51,050
amazing so um this is going to be it for

2001
01:28:54,520 --> 01:28:51,860
the show tonight

2002
01:28:56,350 --> 01:28:54,530
I want to thank you so much and can you

2003
01:28:58,629 --> 01:28:56,360
tell the listening audience where they

2004
01:29:02,049 --> 01:28:58,639
can find these books once are published

2005
01:29:07,859 --> 01:29:02,059
you said on Amazon but yeah if you go to

2006
01:29:10,330 --> 01:29:07,869
my full name and when WI n C period ma Y

2007
01:29:12,699 --> 01:29:10,340
you'll find four or five books up there

2008
01:29:16,569 --> 01:29:12,709
listing and and most of them are pretty

2009
01:29:19,569 --> 01:29:16,579
geeky but ESP Wars Eastern West which

2010
01:29:23,620 --> 01:29:19,579
looks like this it's available on Amazon

2011
01:29:25,719 --> 01:29:23,630
Kindle for a good price this book is fun

2012
01:29:28,839 --> 01:29:25,729
because it has some very funny anecdotes

2013
01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:28,849
in it and it's it's a fun read the rest

2014
01:29:32,199 --> 01:29:30,530
of them are are interesting if you're

2015
01:29:34,419 --> 01:29:32,209
interested in the geek you saw excellent

2016
01:29:35,919 --> 01:29:34,429
all right hey well thank you so much

2017
01:29:38,979 --> 01:29:35,929
it's it's really been a real pleasure

2018
01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:38,989
I've really really enjoyed tonight now

2019
01:29:42,609 --> 01:29:40,489
me to learn and I very much appreciate

2020
01:29:43,929 --> 01:29:42,619
the questions you have asked and any

2021
01:29:46,540 --> 01:29:43,939
time you want to come back and make up

2022
01:29:49,569 --> 01:29:46,550
some new stuff excellent all right will

2023
01:29:52,989 --> 01:29:49,579
you take care all right Kara thank you

2024
01:29:55,509 --> 01:29:52,999
hi alright everyone so that's it for our

2025
01:29:58,509 --> 01:29:55,519
show I hope you enjoyed it I really did

2026
01:29:59,680 --> 01:29:58,519
enjoy it quite a bit myself and we're

2027
01:30:01,240 --> 01:29:59,690
going to be up in just a couple

2028
01:30:04,540 --> 01:30:01,250
days on Monday we're going to be back

2029
01:30:07,870 --> 01:30:04,550
here and we have a excellent guest

2030
01:30:11,830 --> 01:30:07,880
coming up Monday it's John Kiriakou now

2031
01:30:16,990 --> 01:30:11,840
he is a former CIA he's the only one

2032
01:30:19,870 --> 01:30:17,000
that went to prison for for torture he

2033
01:30:21,940 --> 01:30:19,880
did not torture people but what he did

2034
01:30:24,970 --> 01:30:21,950
was he was a whistleblower he's got a

2035
01:30:27,460 --> 01:30:24,980
fascinating story and so that will be

2036
01:30:29,290 --> 01:30:27,470
here Monday I believe it's 8 o'clock and

2037
01:30:31,420 --> 01:30:29,300
hope to see you then

2038
01:30:35,500 --> 01:30:31,430
all right so this is Martin Willis and

2039
01:30:44,980 --> 01:30:43,060
[Music]